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| Allies and Rivals; A public discussion thread regarding how factions are viewing each other. | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 16 2014, 06:46 PM (3,521 Views) | |
| CupcakeTrap | Nov 16 2014, 06:46 PM Post #1 |
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We've got some good material from the arc so far. I think it's about time that factions start deciding who their friends and enemies are this arc. (Note: Have fun with this, but don't get too hardcore about it. Remember that we're all here to have fun.) |
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| Wexiomatic | Nov 16 2014, 07:02 PM Post #2 |
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So far, at least speaking as a Bilgewater summoner, here are my impressions of each other's factions relationship with Bilgewater: Freljord: Unsure. I don't think Bilge has any direct hostilities towards the Freljord, but Freljord seems a bit unpredictable in their interactions with us. One minute they're helping us, the next they're trying to sabotage us. I don't think Bilgewater would be against an alliance or good relationship with the Freljord, but we need to figure out where they stand first. Ionia: We do not like Ionia. We do not want Ionia to succeed. We will continue to stop Ionia at every turn possible. Their actions against us only reinforce this attitude, and if we aren't direct enemies at this point, we are at the very least passively hostile towards them. Shadow Isles: I feel like these guys could still swing either way with us, and it might change depending on the current lore. On one hand, they're magic and tactics could be very advantageous to us, but they haven't proven to be super trust worthy either. Still, unlike Freljord, I feel like they are a more consistent brand of untrustworthy, and I think if we sat and talked, we might be able to find certain issues we agree upon and certain deals that could be reached. |
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| CupcakeTrap | Nov 16 2014, 07:07 PM Post #3 |
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To get things started, here are my thoughts about the Shadow Isles' options for alliances. What are we after? The Isles have a few subfactions. Some, like Karthus, have a rather abstract, "mystical" view of death and undeath. Others, like Mordekaiser and Hecarim, seem much more focused on conquering enemies with their undead armies. Bilgewater Strategically, Bilgewater might be willing to ally with us, because they're the strongest and we're the weakest. In other words, we're in no position to seriously challenge their dominance, but we can make life hard for their primary rivals. Meanwhile, they can give us the boost we need to move up toward second place, or at least third place. Our strengths and weaknesses also complement one another: their weakest area by far is Military, while we have an extraordinarily powerful Military (high stat, and Military-focused special traits). Our Navy sucks, and theirs is in the same ballpark as Demacia's. Our Commerce is non-existent; theirs rivals Zaun's. Conceptually, we both have ties to Noxus. Our own history with Noxus is, uh, kind of complicated, given Discord and all, but still. Noxus is the main faction other than the Isles that uses necromancy. Sure, we may have lent Malzahar some zombie hordes to attack Noxus, but Noxians aren't all high-horsey about such things; they'd backstab us if it served their purposes just the same. No hard feelings. (Especially because—spoiler alert—stabbing a skeleton in the back is not a high-percentage move.) Also, both pirates and zombies have reasons to dislike Demacia and company. Ionia Strategically, Ionia is the established third-place faction. The two of us have little hope of winning against Bilgewater on our own, but together, we might be able to trash Bilge and the Freljord. Conceptually, it's true that we have, uh, some disagreements about the afterlife, but there's some overlap between Karthus and Ionia. We both want to lead souls to an essentially positive afterlife. Ionians are more into reincarnation or whatnot, while we're more into undeath. And, sure, we miiiiiight sometimes just snack on weaker souls that don't deserve lich-hood. Or make them skeletons. But hey, people need to know their place, even in the afterlife. Death is part of the cosmic balance. We're really sorry about the whole thing with Akali and the monk and the dragon-spirit. Not that you can prove that we did it. Not that we did. I mean. Did we? I don't know. Not my department. Talk to Steve, the Lichmaster, I think he was saying something about dragons the other week. Or, whatever, it was just one monk, and one hypercarry. Akali will be back to her peppy self by next week. We've spoken with the monk, too, and honestly, he says he finds being dead very relaxing. Water under the bridge. (You want Steve? We can get you Steve. Burlap sack, shipped right to you. Say the word. Nobody likes Steve. He's a loose cannon.) the Freljord Strategically, they're second-place. They're in a position to overthrow Bilgewater. We could help them do that. Now, it's true that we maaaaybe sort of were planning to use Ceruleana as a gateway to launch an invasion of the Freljord. Sorry! It was just a phase, we assure you. Look! Amumu's dancing! Aww. He has widdle yordle feet. Look at the dancing undead yordle. We're both outsiders to the League. Ashe talks about being friends with Demacia, Ionia, even Piltover. Pshaw. You know you'll always be their lackeys. They're prejudiced. We're not. You're all fleshbags to us. You want to build up the Freljord? Cool. We'll send you legions of skeletons to do that. NPNP. What's that? Volibear wants to free the souls of Winter's Claw warriors? We can talk to Thresh for you. He's got plenty of souls. Maybe we can get a few of them sent off to Valhalla for you. Have your ancestral spirits talk to our ancestral spirits. Okay, this one's hard to spin. I guess we can make jokes about being chilled to the bone? My recommendation Ultimately, any of these factions could serve our ends, though the case for Bilgewater seems the strongest. (And I think we have the most "natural" hostility toward the Freljord, especially if they keep going with Ashe and Demacia. THE LIGHT IT BURNS.) But in the end, it doesn't matter: we'll see who makes the best offer. We're not super-cuddly. But you don't have to like us. We don't care if you like us. You need us, you filthy fleshbags. You're going to die. You think Ionian prayers will save you, as you wheeze your final breath? They are meddling with powers beyond their comprehension. We are the masters of the afterlife. Everyone comes to us sooner or later. You want to be on our good side when you do, mortal. Edited by CupcakeTrap, Nov 16 2014, 07:38 PM.
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| Blackrose02 | Nov 16 2014, 07:35 PM Post #4 |
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Speaking as another Bilgewater summoner, I prefer the Shadow Isles as an ally. Allow me to explain why. They are not in a position to threaten us, militarily, politically, or economically. True, they did attempt to keep us from gaining a champion, but I can't really blame them for that, since we would do the same if Ionia or the Frejlord tried to bring in one of their champions. Plus, they have shown that they don't like Ionia either. With our help, the Shadow Isles might actually manage to rise above last place, and they might be able to make themselves useful in a way useful to us. In addition, apart from trying to keep us from gaining another champion, the Shadow Isles have not made any aggressive moves towards us, unlike Ionia or the Frejlord. |
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| ChroniclerC | Nov 16 2014, 07:53 PM Post #5 |
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Submit to the Void
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My views on the other three factions are mainly pragmatic. We of the Shadow Isles are in last. If we are to stop being in last, we can afford neither to pick pointless fights nor turn down any assistance. I don't have to like you to work with you. |
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| WalkerNash | Nov 16 2014, 07:54 PM Post #6 |
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I'd ship (yar har har) Bilgewater x Shadow Isles. We're gonna need some kinda incentive though, as I'm perfectly fine farm ing y'all for wins (presently something like 12-1 vs you, personally). What can you do for us? We're pirates after all; I don't care about the afterlife, who you kill, etc, as long as Bilge's coffers are full and the wind is in our sails. |
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| Jpdaniel | Nov 16 2014, 07:58 PM Post #7 |
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We've GOT to have GOLD
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((This is mostly in-character. But... reflects my opinions)) As a Bilgewater summoner, I have a few comments. The Freljord There's not much for us to ally over. As the strongest factions we're duking it out ourselves, and then why would we ally? We might be at our peak right here while the freljord could potentially get stronger. Honestly though, I'd be willing to share a cut to them. With our governing position over Emain Albanc, we have food aplenty that we can barely sell, and Avalon can't take ALL of it. While the Freljord could always use that. The Freljord tends to need things we take for granted. So I'd be wholly willing to give some things to them. But they seem hostile to us. Ionia Discussing an Ionia relationship is like discussing what kind of kibble we should get the rabid dog gnawing at our leg. Stop biting us and I'll consider. The Shadow Isles Why the ever-frozen freljord would anyone want to ally with these guys? Evil. EVIL! Besides, we have EVERYTHING to offer them while they have little to offer back. Also, they're evil! I don't care that they haven't sided with the void THIS TIME. They're evil! I'm greedy! Not evil! And even me being greedy is being stopped by people voting staple crops in Emain or buying stuff from the creepy Aeaea. There is no logical reason, no strategic reason, and most certainly no moral reason to. I woudln't oppose them, far from it. I'm not a jerk that would kick a dying dog, but I wouldn't ally with it. I speak for... myself and say that unless Ionia stops trying to fight us, I see no reason to ally with anyone. Though it seems that a lot of bilge wants to buddy up with Zaun. And if I don't see the mangled dogs used as test subjects, they don't exist. Wow my examples involved a lot of animal abuse. Edited by Jpdaniel, Nov 16 2014, 07:58 PM.
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| CupcakeTrap | Nov 16 2014, 08:06 PM Post #8 |
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We didn't ally ourselves with cosmic horrors, or try to hurl Runeterra into the gaping maw of demonic beings from beyond the stars. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT FROM US SERIOUSLY UGHHHHHH YOU MAKE EVERYTHING SO COMPLICATED. Okay, fine, here. We found some orphans who were very sad. We eliminated their sadness by flaying the flesh from their bones and siphoning away the vital force that gave them emotion. They are no longer sad. …wait. Where's our Favor bonus? Sigh. Out-politicked again. Okay, we'll go the extra mile. They missed their parents, and even though they no longer have the capacity to yearn for companionship, we'll reunite them with their "loved" ones. We've taken the souls of the orphans and their parents and bound them together into the same ethereal Still nothing? Really? Now you're just being petulant. Very well, we shall procure additional orphans and try once more. Edited by CupcakeTrap, Nov 16 2014, 08:16 PM.
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| TerraBooma | Nov 16 2014, 08:16 PM Post #9 |
Sorcerer
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As another Bilge summoner, here are my thoughts, albiet less in depth Frielyord: You guys are tripolar, seriously, one week you help us the next you guys try and sabotage, make up your minds ![]() Ionia: We don't like you for some reason, I'm not sure why we don't liek you, maybe your continuous spying attempts. SI: I'm unsure about you guys honestly, there's nothing you can really give us while you have everything to gain. Plus your sort of creepy with your whole undeath thing, lighten up a bit and drink some grog. Maybe an alliance could work, maybe not, depends on the other summoners in my faction really. But hey, out of all the other factions we've had the...least dickish relation? |
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| Rextreff | Nov 16 2014, 08:23 PM Post #10 |
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Hoy, small fry
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According to the consensus of Bilgewater, I've written some objective graphs about the relations between the Valoranian city states currently fighting for Nyroth. (I also find it a coincidence that all three city states in Valora that aren't part of the mainland are in this arc) Ionia I would not ally with them, considering they just tend to fail at basically everything. Ionia has sent their ninjas several times to do ninja spy stuff towards Bilgewater. They haven't gotten very far with that. What ever happened to our alliance? Freljord I don't like the Freljord either. They sent some barbarians to do other spy-y stuff Mission Impossible style. It's a good thing MI6 doesn't hire barbarians. However they also supported our petition that one time. For being so cold they're awfully bipolar. Shadow Isles Generally it seems a plethora of Bilge summoners want to ally with the Shadow Isles. I have heavily considered this. They're too weak to stop us and the only one in this proposed alliance who has anything worthwhile to lose is the Shadow Isles. They haven't really done anything particularly helpful towards Bilgewater. They did oppose our petition that one time. Also, since I'm lazy, I'll c/p what I said about this topic from the other forum I would totally be in an alliance with Shadow Isles, except that they attempted to render our tertiary champion petition unsuccessful. This means that Shadow Isles views us hostility. However I must note that while the Freljord supported our aforementioned petition, later they attempted to muckrack (mudrack) our beloved nation. If Freljord betrayed us, Shadow Isles could theoretically ally with us. Since both Freljord and Ionia are both somewhat hostile with Bilgewater, it wouldn't be out of question that any combination of the other three factions could be alligned. If Shadow Isles does ally with Bilge, they'd be betraying their speculated alliance(s) by allying with their ally's enemy. While I wouldn't immediately want to be in an alliance with the Shadow Isles, they have one of the stronger militaries, and the more allies we have, the better. Regardless of the state of the Shadow Isles' external relationships, this attempt at an alliance could just be a ploy to backstab us later, which seems likely considering their opposition to the now twice aforementioned petition. Strategically speaking, a previously and possibly current enemy asking someone to do something for them in accordance to helping them with no proof would be a really dumb idea. It would be facile for them to oppose our petition while Bilge supporting theirs. There isn't a guarantee that they will support our petition, but there's most likely an equal value in them picking either option. If they oppose us, there's a chance we still succeed on the petition and lose 10 favor, same goes for supporting us. If they oppose us and succeed in doing so, they hindered our attempts at accomplishing a somewhat important goal and cause us to lose favour. If they support us, they'll show that they're trying to make an alliance with Bilgewater. Equally this alliance could be true or a ruse to double-cross us. If the alliance is stable that means both of us gain benefit, but if it is just a ploy they'll benefit themselves and hinder us. At the same time, if they do align with with Bilge and it isn't an attempt to impede on our goals, there's a possibility in Bilgewater betraying them, since there's no guarantee if either one of the factions is actually wanting to align or start hostilities with each other. Personally I say we should wait until the next petition results and interactive lore events. We can't decide on aligning with the Shadow Isles due to us determining whether or not we should support their petition since the possiblity of a feasible alliance directly stems from an event that happens concurrently with us voting to support or oppose the Shadow Isles. Even if they do support us, we probably shouldn't align with them if any amount of actions in the interactive lore events that they take causes an antinomy between us and them, only aligning with them if everything all goes to hell and the drawbacks of not aligning with them outweighs those of aligning with the Shadow Isles. Specifically this last paragraph is outdated, and I don't think they did support our petition. As of current, Freljord relations are neutral towards Bilgewater and so are Shadow Isles. Ionia apparently hates Bilge too. |
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| CupcakeTrap | Nov 16 2014, 08:28 PM Post #11 |
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We have plenty to gain from the alliance. We can finish an arc not in last place. By the way, you know that Black Mist that freaks you guys out so much? We're sorry about that. It's Steve again. Maybe we can help you out. Frankly, we're embarrassed by Steve's antics. Perhaps he could be dealt with. Don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help but add: remember that time Miss Fortune and Gangplank actually sailed out to attack the Black Mist with their ships? That was hilarious. Seriously. Who tries to fight magical ghost-fog by shooting cannonballs at it? Neither fog nor ghosts are traditionally affected by cannonballs. I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive, but what were you thinking? Edited by CupcakeTrap, Nov 16 2014, 10:29 PM.
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| Jpdaniel | Nov 16 2014, 08:34 PM Post #12 |
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We've GOT to have GOLD
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You forgot that Gangplank got buffed so his cannonballs always hit now. ALWAYS. Edited by Jpdaniel, Nov 16 2014, 08:34 PM.
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| Animorpherv1 | Nov 16 2014, 08:49 PM Post #13 |
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Conjurer
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I would be ok with a SI-Bilge alliance. I believe most others are as well.
Edited by Animorpherv1, Nov 16 2014, 08:49 PM.
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| Wizard996 | Nov 16 2014, 09:01 PM Post #14 |
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Random Silver Scrub
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As yet another Bilgewater Summoner, here's where I lie on this: Ionia: Holy crap Rex: http://leaguefactions.net/shon-xan-update-2b-the-league-intervenes-ionia/ I actually didn't remember that. Kudos for digging through and finding it. (sorry for not quoting, too lazy) However, I don't really like Ionia. They have tried to steal our research, and are generally hostile towards us. Plus, it's pirates vs ninjas. Ergo, unless there is a greater problem for us to unite against and completely destroy together, there will forever be hostility. TLDR; Not interested in aligning at this time. At all. And it's just sooo much fun messing with them (that petition fail, eh?) Freljord: These guys are tripolar. They've helped us once, and went against us twice, failing both attempts of aggression. That being said, they are our biggest rival, it's best not to be TOO friendly. I regard them neutrally, except for that Demacia alliance. I don't like Demacia, they don't like us (I remember they voted against us joining this dispute on the preamble for everyone to join, but can't find that on the site despite my meager searching). As a Zaunite, I would be interested in instating Lissandra and pushing her towards Zaun (since we kinda allied with her post-Hextech). But that's Zaun, and doesn't really affect this. Shadow Isles: Alliance would certainly be interesting. Sure, we've had our misgivings in the past, like the Black Mists. But to quote GLaDoS: "Okay, look, we've both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster." I have pushed for a good relation with them for a while, but the Bilge forums made it sound like most people were against it, which makes it strange that most Bilge's (with the exception of Walker) would be fine with it. I'm willing to overlook your...conquering, past. You guys are obviously hurting in this arc, but are seeming to start to 'turn the tides.' I know you probably see us as a commerce and Naval assistant to you guys, as well as a huge petition booster, but I see you guys as a military tool that are outcasts in general, kind of like us in that regard. Your whole undead thing gives you a negative stigma you don't necessarily deserve, like our love of ale and plunder. TLDR; I would be most amiable to allying with the undead hordes. Look at Amumu; they can be cuddly under that rotting surface. They may not be as evil as a single past event gives them. Let's at least give em a chance. |
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| 501st Big Mike | Nov 16 2014, 09:13 PM Post #15 |
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of
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I think it's pretty damn funny that one of the main reasons for bilge to want to ally with us is we pose no threat. XD Who would have thought that a crap performance would have a benefit? |
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| Wizard996 | Nov 16 2014, 09:17 PM Post #16 |
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Random Silver Scrub
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Really Cupcake? I trimmed the heck out of what you said, sure, but you also need to realize this isn't a private board. Trying to entice every faction at once doesn't make us the most willing to hold hands with you It makes it sound like you just want to use us as a tool for your own ends. While I would be lying if I said I haven't at least considering this last arc/with other factions this arc, you also don't need to make it blatantly obvious."We'll see who makes the best offer," seriously? Sure, we're going to die, and while I would love to team up with you, at least make a case that doesn't damn and compliment every faction at the same time. I mean, come on, you say: "Ultimately, any of these factions could serve our ends, though the case for Bilgewater seems the strongest." and then back it up with reasoning. BUT THEN you also say: "Strategically, they're second-place. They're in a position to overthrow Bilgewater. We could help them do that." and "The two of us have little hope of winning against Bilgewater on our own, but together, we might be able to trash Bilge and the Freljord." Work with us here Cupcake, don't make the Isles seem worse than they already are. |
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| AbiwonKenabi | Nov 16 2014, 09:20 PM Post #17 |
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Sorcerer
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Is there anything to gain from trying to ally with Factions NOT in the arc? CAN we ally with Factions not in the arc? Obviously Freljord already has some relations with Demacia that could be beneficial during this arc. Also, I would love the opportunity to look into an alliance with Bandle City; we DID find their long-lost cousins, and I'm sure they'd be quite interested in studying Lanpoa. (That's what its called, right?) Otherwise, honestly, I think its in Freljord's best interest to support or oppose petitions on a case-by-case basis. If Freljord wants to be taken seriously as an independent city-state and NOT as a group of random barbarians, they need to actually THINK about who and what they support. If factions come to us and ask for support, we let them say their piece and decide from there. We shouldn't be slaves to another faction, we should be the ones with the power in hand. That said, we should be willing to form agreements when necessary. |
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| drmigit2 | Nov 16 2014, 09:36 PM Post #18 |
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Magus
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Gonna use CCT's already used template to make my opinion. What are we after? Power, mostly. What? You think we want anything else? No, we pretty much just want to place as much influence on Nyroth as possible. We were willing to unleash a void spire in order to do it, don't underestimate our resolve. Sure we reconsidered, but if you're not careful we might just ban smite. Now THAT would be spooky. Bilgewater I can't talk from Bilgewater's perspective, but I can talk from my perspective. We seem to be after the same basic thing, which is good and bad. Good in that we understand each other, and why we do what we do, but bad because we are competing over a similar finite resource. So why ally with each other? Well, no matter how well Bilgewater performs, the reality is nobody is going to be able to take all of, or maybe even half of Nyroth. The best solution to this, is that Bilgewater finds someone they can deal with living next to. Guess what, if the Shadow Isles has its sphere of influence, it's unlikely we will want to expand it too much. Unlike the Void, we haven't actually unleashed any massive invasions on...well anyone. You are more likely to get an Ionian laser beam or a Demacian explosion to the face than have an undead invasion. This is obviously discounting Nefara, but she isn't actually allied with us, just has similar powers. So, while every other faction has some sort of bone to pick with Bilgewater, the Isles might be able to be the faction that doesn't mess with them too much. Ionia Fuck. Ionia...was the sentiment I had for a while, but now things have cooled for a bit. Honestly, Ionia and the Shadow Isles could work for a short-term alliance. A parting of swords, as it is, we have too many differences for anything long lasting, but if Ionia wants to lose less, I could see a few petition boost exchanges being interesting. Don't expect us to change too much, but maybe we will stop bombing you. the Freljord I don't see much of a reason for either of us to be anything but neutral. Lissandra doesn't seem too interested in necromancy, and we don't need ice magic. We also don't have a whole lot of reasons to hate each other, just stay away from us and we won't have Eve bomb you. My recommendation Realistically, the Shadow Isles COULD feasibly ally itself with anyone, but we can't really be allies with both Bilgewater and Ionia, and honestly, our alliance could tip the balance of power one way or the other for both factions. Something to consider. Bilgewater might not be afraid of us right now, but if the other factions start ganging up against it, perhaps then it will regret passing up the opportunity of an alliance. |
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| CupcakeTrap | Nov 16 2014, 10:27 PM Post #19 |
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Oh, sorry. It sounds like there was some confusion or uncertainty. Let me clarify: we just want to use you as a tool for our own ends. X_X You can trust us, see? We're not like all those (other) duplicitious fleshbags. We don't pretend to be your friend. Our motivations coincide; what else matters? That said, if you don't ally with us, perhaps we can work with the Freljord or Ionia to destroy you. X_X Take your time deciding; we have all the time in the world. X_X Unlike you. X_X I'm obviously hamming it up a little, but TBH, I think this sort of bloodless cynicism is actually more or less what SI's pitch would sound like. While it won't win any awards for excellent advocacy, I also find it rather compelling: Bilgewater is the lead faction, with everything to lose, while SI is the last-place faction, with nothing to lose. They'd be a safe ally for Bilgewater, in that they can't possibly surpass them, but a very dangerous enemy, because their last-ditch "nuclear options" might be quite destructive. In a way, their creepiness is an asset. There is some fascinating literature about the benefits of insanity (actual or apparent) in international relations; if someone believes you're absolutely nuts, you actually gain a game theoretic advantage over them in some contexts. Of all the factions, SI has by the most cred by far when it comes to psycho threats. Edited by CupcakeTrap, Nov 16 2014, 10:41 PM.
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| ChroniclerC | Nov 16 2014, 10:34 PM Post #20 |
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Submit to the Void
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Like I said. We don't have to like you to work with you. |
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