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Lore Event V, continued; A little more info
Topic Started: Dec 20 2014, 03:23 AM (2,474 Views)
StormRevolver
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drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 01:17 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:11 AM
no this is just borderline cheating. You guys just implemented shittons of rule changes after choices with no information, and just before battle to make a onesided stomp against the faction of the world systems creator into a loss. This is exactly like the random voidlings in hextech. There is realy no good reason for those last minute changes other than to keep the bilgewater veterans happy. (and you guys didnt even calculate with the actualy military stat of SI for the cap. our military stat at the time should be atleast 150, and let no room to maybe even point out these kind of errors) And then added even the atrox nerfs just before battle. Yea its pretty much just forming the rules to fit one side.
Hey now, Naggarok works very hard on this system and I really doubt he would try to skew things one way or another just to give bilgewater a boostie. Accusing the people who run this of "cheating" helps nobody. Can we not be dicks here?
and maybe i wont be a dick if there was no reason to it. i like factions, i like the world systems, i realy appreciate how much work nagga and cct puts into it, and this angers me all the more when they do things like this when it could have been avoided if they just took their time, to properly set up things, instead of trying to rush things again. like it would have mattered if they postpone the whole event another week, or they didnt start the arc before they looked the systems trough tried it out a bit, and balanced things.
Edited by StormRevolver, Dec 21 2014, 01:30 AM.
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CupcakeTrap
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StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:19 AM
drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 01:17 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:11 AM
no this is just borderline cheating. You guys just implemented shittons of rule changes after choices with no information, and just before battle to make a onesided stomp against the faction of the world systems creator into a loss. This is exactly like the random voidlings in hextech. There is realy no good reason for those last minute changes other than to keep the bilgewater veterans happy. (and you guys didnt even calculate with the actualy military stat of SI for the cap. our military stat at the time should be atleast 150, and let no room to maybe even point out these kind of errors) And then added even the atrox nerfs just before battle. Yea its pretty much just forming the rules to fit one side.
Hey now, Naggarok works very hard on this system and I really doubt he would try to skew things one way or another just to give bilgewater a boostie. Accusing the people who run this of "cheating" helps nobody. Can we not be dicks here?
i know he works hard, but the rules always change when not his faction is leading. Somehow the zaunite double research is still in place when its broken as hell.
There was some tension, but Naggarok was actually in agreement with me about trying to find ways to buff SI more up toward where we thought they were. And like I said, his initial suggestion was to fiat it to something like 100 for SI and 80 for Bilgewater. I was the one who insisted that we do a proper recount. I was pretty shocked with how that recount played out, and (while I really dislike this kind of conclusion-oriented adjustment) I argued that we ought to try to find some ways to buff SI back up. Naggarok was actually in agreement on that, though we argued a bit over magnitudes. (+15 vs. +20 vs. +10 and so on.)

The whole "military capacity" thing was a disaster. The original idea was to prevent the biggest faction from just massacring everyone right off the bat. It proved unworkable for a number of reasons. I thought we had implemented a new system that was being tracked; I learned today that we had not. So I insisted we do our best to go back and work it all out. Well. That turned out as you've seen.

At this point, my principal regret is making this an option on the poll. I knew the Military system was jerry-rigged and busted, but I decided to push our luck.

As for Naggarok, he was in the middle of finals this week. He'd been very much on top of record-keeping until this week. I think he just didn't have time to put in Krocylea, and like I was saying, the whole capacity system had some inherent problems. I don't think he was trying to cheat for Bilgewater.

All of this is why I'm going to be insistent that we not start adding new features in for the next arc, but that we instead take as long as we have to (2 months, 3 months, whatever) to refine and test what we do have. No more expansion, at least not in the sense of complexity. I'm really, really looking forward to a return to basics during intermission: just matches with no fancy stuff involved.
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StormRevolver
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CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 01:29 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:19 AM
drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 01:17 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:11 AM
no this is just borderline cheating. You guys just implemented shittons of rule changes after choices with no information, and just before battle to make a onesided stomp against the faction of the world systems creator into a loss. This is exactly like the random voidlings in hextech. There is realy no good reason for those last minute changes other than to keep the bilgewater veterans happy. (and you guys didnt even calculate with the actualy military stat of SI for the cap. our military stat at the time should be atleast 150, and let no room to maybe even point out these kind of errors) And then added even the atrox nerfs just before battle. Yea its pretty much just forming the rules to fit one side.
Hey now, Naggarok works very hard on this system and I really doubt he would try to skew things one way or another just to give bilgewater a boostie. Accusing the people who run this of "cheating" helps nobody. Can we not be dicks here?
i know he works hard, but the rules always change when not his faction is leading. Somehow the zaunite double research is still in place when its broken as hell.
There was some tension, but Naggarok was actually in agreement with me about trying to find ways to buff SI more up toward where we thought they were. And like I said, his initial suggestion was to fiat it to something like 100 for SI and 80 for Bilgewater. I was the one who insisted that we do a proper recount. I was pretty shocked with how that recount played out, and (while I really dislike this kind of conclusion-oriented adjustment) I argued that we ought to try to find some ways to buff SI back up. Naggarok was actually in agreement on that, though we argued a bit over magnitudes. (+15 vs. +20 vs. +10 and so on.)

The whole "military capacity" thing was a disaster. The original idea was to prevent the biggest faction from just massacring everyone right off the bat. It proved unworkable for a number of reasons. I thought we had implemented a new system that was being tracked; I learned today that we had not. So I insisted we do our best to go back and work it all out. Well. That turned out as you've seen.

At this point, my principal regret is making this an option on the poll. I knew the Military system was jerry-rigged and busted, but I decided to push our luck.

As for Naggarok, he was in the middle of finals this week. He'd been very much on top of record-keeping until this week. I think he just didn't have time to put in Krocylea, and like I was saying, the whole capacity system had some inherent problems. I don't think he was trying to cheat for Bilgewater.

All of this is why I'm going to be insistent that we not start adding new features in for the next arc, but that we instead take as long as we have to (2 months, 3 months, whatever) to refine and test what we do have. No more expansion, at least not in the sense of complexity. I'm really, really looking forward to a return to basics during intermission: just matches with no fancy stuff involved.
i know all things went hell, but you guys decided to change things at the worst time possible, when you could have rolled with the info we were given and then change things after the arc. Hell i know you guys have shittons of work but why not postpone the whole thing then? Im kinda sure we wouldnt have gone atrox route if you guys give us the numbers that we have realy no chance of beating bilge
Edited by StormRevolver, Dec 21 2014, 01:36 AM.
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CupcakeTrap
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StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:23 AM
and maybe i wont be a dick if there was no reason to it. i like factions, i like the world systems, i realy appreciate how much work nagga and cct puts into it, and this angers me all the more when they do things like this when it could have been avoided if they just took their time, to properly set up things, instead of trying to rush things again.
I agree and disagree. I think all of this could have been avoided if we had proper prepwork in place. I disagree, though, with the idea that we had the time or energy to do that prep work. During intermission, we need to expand our team and carve out the necessary time. But in terms of what could have been done in the final weeks of this arc, I respectfully disagree: we've been working ourselves to our limits and beyond those limits for weeks, if not months. It's quite possible that if I had an extra ten hours last week, I'd have noticed these problems with the military system and had them fixed. But I didn't.
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drmigit2
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CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 01:29 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:19 AM
drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 01:17 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:11 AM
no this is just borderline cheating. You guys just implemented shittons of rule changes after choices with no information, and just before battle to make a onesided stomp against the faction of the world systems creator into a loss. This is exactly like the random voidlings in hextech. There is realy no good reason for those last minute changes other than to keep the bilgewater veterans happy. (and you guys didnt even calculate with the actualy military stat of SI for the cap. our military stat at the time should be atleast 150, and let no room to maybe even point out these kind of errors) And then added even the atrox nerfs just before battle. Yea its pretty much just forming the rules to fit one side.
Hey now, Naggarok works very hard on this system and I really doubt he would try to skew things one way or another just to give bilgewater a boostie. Accusing the people who run this of "cheating" helps nobody. Can we not be dicks here?
i know he works hard, but the rules always change when not his faction is leading. Somehow the zaunite double research is still in place when its broken as hell.
There was some tension, but Naggarok was actually in agreement with me about trying to find ways to buff SI more up toward where we thought they were. And like I said, his initial suggestion was to fiat it to something like 100 for SI and 80 for Bilgewater. I was the one who insisted that we do a proper recount. I was pretty shocked with how that recount played out, and (while I really dislike this kind of conclusion-oriented adjustment) I argued that we ought to try to find some ways to buff SI back up. Naggarok was actually in agreement on that, though we argued a bit over magnitudes. (+15 vs. +20 vs. +10 and so on.)

The whole "military capacity" thing was a disaster. The original idea was to prevent the biggest faction from just massacring everyone right off the bat. It proved unworkable for a number of reasons. I thought we had implemented a new system that was being tracked; I learned today that we had not. So I insisted we do our best to go back and work it all out. Well. That turned out as you've seen.

At this point, my principal regret is making this an option on the poll. I knew the Military system was jerry-rigged and busted, but I decided to push our luck.

As for Naggarok, he was in the middle of finals this week. He'd been very much on top of record-keeping until this week. I think he just didn't have time to put in Krocylea, and like I was saying, the whole capacity system had some inherent problems. I don't think he was trying to cheat for Bilgewater.

All of this is why I'm going to be insistent that we not start adding new features in for the next arc, but that we instead take as long as we have to (2 months, 3 months, whatever) to refine and test what we do have. No more expansion, at least not in the sense of complexity. I'm really, really looking forward to a return to basics during intermission: just matches with no fancy stuff involved.
One humerous possibility is that we could have just sent a dummy army to Stormhaven. Perhaps we strung up a bunch of corpses and sent a navy with it? Perhaps the battering rams we superglued on the boats combined to an impressive 5 strength? Maybe our entire plan was to occupy Bilgewater with a super intimidating fake army while our real army marched on Yoroth? That way nothing really changes and we just change a few numbers.
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StormRevolver
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CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 01:32 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:23 AM
and maybe i wont be a dick if there was no reason to it. i like factions, i like the world systems, i realy appreciate how much work nagga and cct puts into it, and this angers me all the more when they do things like this when it could have been avoided if they just took their time, to properly set up things, instead of trying to rush things again.
I agree and disagree. I think all of this could have been avoided if we had proper prepwork in place. I disagree, though, with the idea that we had the time or energy to do that prep work. During intermission, we need to expand our team and carve out the necessary time. But in terms of what could have been done in the final weeks of this arc, I respectfully disagree: we've been working ourselves to our limits and beyond those limits for weeks, if not months. It's quite possible that if I had an extra ten hours last week, I'd have noticed these problems with the military system and had them fixed. But I didn't.
Hell then take a fucking break postpone the whole thing until newyear, and have a merry christmas. seriously overworking yourself doesnt help nothing, it will just burn you out. take your time, write a funny christmas yordle lore or anything that you would like. Its not like we would run away in just a week or two when we were around for this long.
Edited by StormRevolver, Dec 21 2014, 01:44 AM.
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CupcakeTrap
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StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 01:32 AM
i know all things went hell, but you guys decided to change things at the worst time possible, when you could have rolled with the info we were given and then change things after the arc. Hell i know you guys have shittons of work but why not postpone the whole thing then?
I thought very seriously about just saying "You know what? No. We're going with the numbers that everyone thinks are the right numbers. They won't even know the difference." But I just couldn't bring myself to do that. It seemed wrong.

As for postponing it, there too, the issue is just that we really need this arc to end. We can't keep this up much longer. (The idea of postponing the end of Nyroth had me imitating the NO NO NO cat.) Rather than dragging out the end of the Nyroth arc any further, I think the right thing to do is to wrap Nyroth, move into intermission, and then give ourselves as much time as we need to hire people, review the rules, draft lore, set up story outlines, and so on so that the next arc will run more smoothly.

That was in many ways my plan for this arc. The problem there was that I noticed the community starting to disintegrate during intermission, because nobody really wanted to play intermission matches, and there didn't seem to be much of a point. So eventually I said, okay, fine, we're starting this new Nyroth arc, and we'll just have to wing it. (Terrible, terrible idea, but I didn't feel I had a choice.) I'm hopeful that a scored intermission will be more engaging, and allow us to take our time. But regardless, even if the entire community leaves while we work on this, I'd rather have that and start from scratch in terms of the playerbase than launch into another arc half-finished. I don't mean to veer into hyperbole, but I really cannot survive another round of this. The only way I'm doing another arc is with truly sufficient planning and prep. It's not just about the sheer time commitment, though that's huge: it's also the stress of things like this happening.

So. Intermission. Hire more staff. Revise, don't expand. Simplify. Plan. Take all the time we need. That's the idea.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 01:41 AM.
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StormRevolver
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and take a break too
Edited by StormRevolver, Dec 21 2014, 01:47 AM.
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ChroniclerC
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Submit to the Void
By the by, is that application for Systems staff still bouncing around somewhere? I dunno if you need any more ideas people - too many cooks and whatnot - but having more hands available for mock systems testing during intermission can't be a bad thing.
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CupcakeTrap
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ChroniclerC
Dec 21 2014, 01:50 AM
By the by, is that application for Systems staff still bouncing around somewhere? I dunno if you need any more ideas people - too many cooks and whatnot - but having more hands available for mock systems testing during intermission can't be a bad thing.
Yes. Naggarok has a huge list. I've mentioned it to him more than once. He's (reasonably, I think) going to wait until Intermission to really review it, sort of like how I'm waiting until Intermission to really go through the lorestaff apps. It might sound odd, but bringing people onto the team (while ultimately timesaving and quality increasing) is not a great short-term solution to a timecrunch. (I tried that a bit with some of the island events, just telling people "hey, welcome to the team, go do an island event, you have 24 hours", and it didn't really work. It's asking too much of people.) This is the sort of leisurely, long-term, ultimately very efficient project that I'm looking forward to for intermission.

Playtesting in particular is going to be important. One of our biggest problems here was that we stopped right after design but before playtesting, so there's stuff in World Systems (and elsewhere) that's just…wrong. (We actually have repeatedly made last-minute changes—in SI's favor, by the way—because we realized that the rules as written down were just broken. Like their failed Danger Level check before the tournament.)
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 02:05 AM.
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StormRevolver
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as a side note i dont see no reason why the units we have risen dont raise our upkeep. Its just another rule change to keep si down. eeeh why do i even care. not like anybody else cares.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 03:59 AM
as a side note i dont see no reason why the units we have risen dont raise our upkeep. Its just another rule change to keep si down. eeeh why do i even care. not like anybody else cares.
The real question is 'why do we even HAVE upkeep' ? We're UNDEAD! We don't die from disease, we hardly need Shelter (though Shelter is always welcome) we don't need to breathe, we don't need to sleep, some Zombies don't even need to Eat (though all undead have a compulsion to eat, that doesn't always mean they require it as their body doesn't metabolize the same way)

Theoretically we shouldn't even have a 'Capacity' except for our Living IE: Summoners and Necromancers that haven't fully turned. Since those are Lore Flavor anyway, we could theoretically have an Infinite Army. That's kind of how Undead raised from Magic work anyway.
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StormRevolver
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Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 04:07 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 03:59 AM
as a side note i dont see no reason why the units we have risen dont raise our upkeep. Its just another rule change to keep si down. eeeh why do i even care. not like anybody else cares.
The real question is 'why do we even HAVE upkeep' ? We're UNDEAD! We don't die from disease, we hardly need Shelter (though Shelter is always welcome) we don't need to breathe, we don't need to sleep, some Zombies don't even need to Eat (though all undead have a compulsion to eat, that doesn't always mean they require it as their body doesn't metabolize the same way)

Theoretically we shouldn't even have a 'Capacity' except for our Living IE: Summoners and Necromancers that haven't fully turned. Since those are Lore Flavor anyway, we could theoretically have an Infinite Army. That's kind of how Undead raised from Magic work anyway.
if we realy wanted to we could say how much body we have for the souls. But its just a mechanic, that can be explained a lot of ways. But turning a 140 vs 70 into a 95 vs 100, then talking about lucky rolls, when they nerf atrox just before battle, ... bah
Edited by StormRevolver, Dec 21 2014, 04:59 AM.
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silencermage
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Research and Devlelopment
It seems like to me you need to acquire more staff and then break down individual tasks and give them to the staffers. That way instead of having you and nagg do a lot of work between two people you can get small amounts done by everyone and then bring it all together.
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CupcakeTrap
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StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 04:55 AM
But turning a 140 vs 70 into a 95 vs 100, then talking about lucky rolls, when they nerf atrox just before battle, ... bah
Well, what was I supposed to do? I discovered that the 140 number had no basis in reality; it was essentially a spreadsheet error. Similarly, Bilgewater actually had dramatically more military strength than the spreadsheet said: it hadn't been updated with several of their lore event gains, which had been forgotten about in the rush to get everything posted.

Let's say I kept those numbers "because that's what we had written down and told the Shadow Isles they had", and the Shadow Isles proceeded to raze Stormhaven and drive Bilgewater off the mainland for the arc resolution, killing a huge percentage of their Nyrothian delegation and raising them as undead.

So, then imagine the thread in the Bilgewater forum. "Wait, these numbers are wrong. We checked, and just counting up all the military gains Bilgewater made on island explorations, we had more like 120 Strength than 70 Strength. That's 50 Strength you just 'forgot' to include."

As soon as I realized the numbers were totally wrong, I knew that one side or the other was going to be furious, and not without cause. TBH, I really wanted to take the arbitrary route and say "hey, guess what, SI raises a bunch of bonus undead for this event, the broken numbers are now correct"—sort of like adding Voidlings into the Battle of Shurima. But after thinking it over for some time, I decided that if I had to piss someone off, I'd rather revise the errors we'd discovered than enforce the errors.

I do think you have a point about raised units being special Nyrothian units that do not use up existing capacity. I was actually the one who proposed making them reinforcements rather than non-capacity troops; Naggarok resisted the idea and argued that they should be bonus troops that don't use up capacity. I decided to make the change because, at the time, it seemed more consistent with the passive as a way to compensate SI for battle losses, and allow it to keep rolling after suffering losses so long as it ultimately wins. I'll even discuss doing a reroll of Stormhaven based on that.

Regardless of what happens with Stormhaven, I think the underlying problem is that the Shadow Isles need a place in the story's conclusion. My first thought on waking up this morning was actually that, and a possible solution, which is to just give Shadow Isles control over Nyroth's lost souls, or at least a significant number of them, and let the Shadow Isles decide what to do with them. (Then, if the Freljord wants to let them do the same thing in Yoroth, that can possibly happen.) I feel like that would be fitting.

And yes, I'll raise the subject of rerolling Stormhaven with Naggarok. I don't want to break the rules to help SI, but I think we should strongly consider tilting ambiguous rules in their favor. It was understood that raising units gave SI troops that didn't use up capacity.

As for why SI has capacity at all, it's mostly a balance mechanic, but I'd say it has something to do with having enough energy to sustain that many undead at a time, hence why their barracks building was a "hallowed ground".
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 12:31 PM.
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drmigit2
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CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 10:57 AM
StormRevolver
Dec 21 2014, 04:55 AM
But turning a 140 vs 70 into a 95 vs 100, then talking about lucky rolls, when they nerf atrox just before battle, ... bah
Well, what was I supposed to do? I discovered that the 140 number had no basis in reality; it was essentially a spreadsheet error. Similarly, Bilgewater actually had dramatically more military strength than the spreadsheet said: it hadn't been updated with several of their lore event gains, which had been forgotten about in the rush to get everything posted.

Let's say I kept those numbers "because that's what we had written down and told the Shadow Isles they had", and the Shadow Isles proceeded to raze Stormhaven and drive Bilgewater off the mainland for the arc resolution, killing a huge percentage of their Nyrothian delegation and raising them as undead.

So, then imagine the thread in the Bilgewater forum. "Wait, these numbers are wrong. We checked, and just counting up all the military gains Bilgewater made on island explorations, we had more like 120 Strength than 70 Strength. That's 50 Strength you just 'forgot' to include."

As soon as I realized the numbers were totally wrong, I knew that one side or the other was going to be furious, and not without cause. TBH, I really wanted to take the arbitrary route and say "hey, guess what, SI raises a bunch of bonus undead for this event, the broken numbers are now correct"—sort of like adding Voidlings into the Battle of Shurima. But after thinking it over for some time, I decided that if I had to piss someone off, I'd rather revise the errors we'd discovered than enforce the errors.

I do think you have a point about raised units being special Nyrothian units that do not use up existing capacity. That was actually me, not Naggarok; he resisted the idea, but at the time it seemed more consistent with the passive as a way to compensate SI for battle losses, and allow it to keep rolling after suffering losses so long as it ultimately wins. I'll even discuss doing a reroll of Stormhaven based on that.

Regardless of what happens with Stormhaven, I think the underlying problem is that the Shadow Isles need a place in the story's conclusion. My first thought on waking up this morning was actually that, and a possible solution, which is to just give Shadow Isles control over Nyroth's lost souls, or at least a significant number of them, and let the Shadow Isles decide what to do with them. (Then, if the Freljord wants to let them do the same thing in Yoroth, that can possibly happen.) I feel like that would be fitting.

And yes, I'll raise the subject of rerolling Stormhaven with Naggarok. I don't want to break the rules to help SI, but I think we should strongly consider tilting ambiguous rules in their favor. It was understood that raising units gave SI troops that didn't use up capacity.

As for why SI has capacity at all, it's mostly a balance mechanic, but I'd say it has something to do with having enough energy to sustain that many undead at a time, hence why their barracks building was a "hallowed ground".
Maybe we just redo everything with the correct information and extend the arc by a week? Just kind of throw hands up in the air and say "sorry guys, there was a massive error, we will just hit the reset button and do things the right way." Shadow Isles goes and does its thing with the actual info and we continue from there? I can't imagine Bilgewater would be overly pissed one way or the other.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 12:25 PM
Maybe we just redo everything with the correct information and extend the arc by a week? Just kind of throw hands up in the air and say "sorry guys, there was a massive error, we will just hit the reset button and do things the right way." Shadow Isles goes and does its thing with the actual info and we continue from there? I can't imagine Bilgewater would be overly pissed one way or the other.
This time, perhaps more than any other in Factions Hostory, is the time for a redo. We were misled, not by a Faction but the Staff Themselves (We know it was unintended but it's still fucked up) and information was changed spur-of-the-moment rather than saying 'Okay, we really fucked up, here's the correct information, do you still want to do this or go do something else?'

There is no shame in admitting mistakes, there is shame in forcing a course of action in light of new information that would make you reconsider.
Edited by Kaynunot, Dec 21 2014, 12:32 PM.
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CupcakeTrap
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Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 12:29 PM
drmigit2
Dec 21 2014, 12:25 PM
Maybe we just redo everything with the correct information and extend the arc by a week? Just kind of throw hands up in the air and say "sorry guys, there was a massive error, we will just hit the reset button and do things the right way." Shadow Isles goes and does its thing with the actual info and we continue from there? I can't imagine Bilgewater would be overly pissed one way or the other.
This time, perhaps more than any other in Factions Hostory, is the time for a redo. We were misled, not by a Faction but the Staff Themselves (We know it was unintended but it's still fucked up) and information was changed spur-of-the-moment rather than saying 'Okay, we really fucked up, here's the correct information, do you still want to do this or go do something else?'

There is no shame in admitting mistakes, there is shame in forcing a course of action in light of new information that would make you reconsider.
I'm thinking about that right now. But if Shadow Isles says "nevermind, let's slaughter the Freljord and Ionia", then we have yet another problem—and you must appreciate how unfair that will come across. You'll have people saying, "Wait a minute, they failed against Bilgewater, and now they're getting a reset and getting to come after us instead?" And then what happens when SI massacres the Freljord and Ionia and nullifies the exploration of Yoroth? No, I want this over, one way or another.

For now, I'm going to complete this total recount (with raised undead as "special" non-capacity troops) and see where that leaves SI. If it really does leave them better off, we can talk about resuming the Stormhaven rolls, or something. If not, I'll move on to drafting an adventure for SI involving the Nyrothian souls.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 12:36 PM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 12:33 PM
I'm thinking about that right now. But if Shadow Isles says "nevermind, let's slaughter the Freljord and Ionia", then we have yet another problem—and you must appreciate how unfair that will come across. You'll have people saying, "Wait a minute, they failed against Bilgewater, and now they're getting a reset and getting to come after us instead?"
Everyone at this point has to realize the ball was dropped. Bilgewater has told us they wouldn't have attacked, Frejlord is saying they will work with us, I don't actually see what Ionia is saying other than 'GG' and frankly, even with the military, at this point I would vote against forcing a Military Conflict. If anything I'd send the armies to Krocylea saying 'Here, let's clear out whatever the hell's in the way for you.'

Everyone must realize to some extent this was done unfairly. Do you honestly think it's worse to admit your mistakes, or force SI into a corner like an abused puppy, Bruised and Beaten not Once, not Twice, but Three Times?
Edited by Kaynunot, Dec 21 2014, 12:43 PM.
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PONCHOGRANDE
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Meanwhile in Top Lane...
I really appreciate you owning up to the mistake, and I can sympathize that you would rather this arc be over instead of having to redo events. Things like this were bound to happen eventually, and I am looking forward to intermission to work out the kinks in the system. Despite that, I feel it is a fair compromise letting SI take back their army and use it to assist in Yoroth. Freljord and Ionia aren't forced to cast revotes, and SI doesn't feel cheated out of its army.
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