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Lore Event V, continued; A little more info
Topic Started: Dec 20 2014, 03:23 AM (2,472 Views)
CupcakeTrap
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Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 12:38 PM
CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 12:33 PM
I'm thinking about that right now. But if Shadow Isles says "nevermind, let's slaughter the Freljord and Ionia", then we have yet another problem—and you must appreciate how unfair that will come across. You'll have people saying, "Wait a minute, they failed against Bilgewater, and now they're getting a reset and getting to come after us instead?"
Everyone at this point has to realize the ball was dropped. Bilgewater has told us they wouldn't have attacked, Frejlord is saying they will work with us, I don't actually see what Ionia is saying other than 'GG' and frankly, even with the military, at this point I would vote against forcing a Military Conflict. If anything I'd send the armies to Krocylea saying 'Here, let's clear out whatever the hell's in the way for you.'

Everyone must realize to some extent this was done unfairly. Do you honestly think it's worse to admit your mistakes, or force SI into a corner like an abused puppy, Bruised and Beaten not Once, not Twice, but Three Times?
"Sometimes puppies do bad things. Sometimes they nip at you, or piddle on the carpet, or summon the avatar of war and massacre tens of thousands of people. Puppies don't know any better."

Sorry, I had to offer some kind of riposte to the puppy analogy. It was just too entertaining imagining a puppy version of the Shadow Isles.

Still, I think you're probably right. I'll finish this recount and see where that leaves us. If the recount would give them a chance at victory, combined with the reversal of the Aatrox change, then we can talk about giving SI a final decision today. If not, then I say we just let the pieces fall where they may and focus on the "Nyrothian souls" part of the story.

I really, REALLY, REALLY do not want to extend this arc. I'm just not doing that. I can't handle another week. I'd rather have a somewhat rough finish.

Now, I'd be open to having lore events or whatnot to tie up loose ends after the arc officially concludes tomorrow. That's a separate topic.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 12:50 PM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
PONCHOGRANDE
Dec 21 2014, 12:48 PM
Despite that, I feel it is a fair compromise letting SI take back their army and use it to assist in Yoroth. Freljord and Ionia aren't forced to cast revotes, and SI doesn't feel cheated out of its army.
I'd be all in favor of that, we can use our military in an extremely helpful manner that actually doesn't make us bad guys. We help people we were legitimately going to work with one way or the other after Stormhaven, and we aren't forced into a corner over this. I can't think of a better option for everyone involved in this madness.
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CupcakeTrap
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Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 12:51 PM
PONCHOGRANDE
Dec 21 2014, 12:48 PM
Despite that, I feel it is a fair compromise letting SI take back their army and use it to assist in Yoroth. Freljord and Ionia aren't forced to cast revotes, and SI doesn't feel cheated out of its army.
I'd be all in favor of that, we can use our military in an extremely helpful manner that actually doesn't make us bad guys. We help people we were legitimately going to work with one way or the other after Stormhaven, and we aren't forced into a corner over this. I can't think of a better option for everyone involved in this madness.
One compromise idea—write the attack on Stormhaven as including Aatrox being banished. SI can then go back to being a little less bloodthirsty. That's just an idea.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 12:54 PM
Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 12:51 PM
PONCHOGRANDE
Dec 21 2014, 12:48 PM
Despite that, I feel it is a fair compromise letting SI take back their army and use it to assist in Yoroth. Freljord and Ionia aren't forced to cast revotes, and SI doesn't feel cheated out of its army.
I'd be all in favor of that, we can use our military in an extremely helpful manner that actually doesn't make us bad guys. We help people we were legitimately going to work with one way or the other after Stormhaven, and we aren't forced into a corner over this. I can't think of a better option for everyone involved in this madness.
One compromise idea—write the attack on Stormhaven as including Aatrox being banished. SI can then go back to being a little less bloodthirsty. That's just an idea.
Perhaps in future arcs, Shadow Isles not be given insane research and espionage stuff and just gets asked 'Okay, you have an army, how do you want to use it?' Because it really is our thing to just use our army and abandon everything else as those stats still aren't worthwhile enough to invest in. One of the things we'll need to discuss during intermission is making alternative uses of good stats... Kuronan mutters something unintelligble under his breath.

Aatrox will just tend to influence our armies negatively. Instead of removing an option, we'll have a Battle of Conscience? Say, if the choices between Psycho Options and Good Options are small enough gaps, they are overridden. For example, If Shadow Isles voted to free Neritum with a 45% margin, slaughter with a 40% margin, and enslave with a 15% margin, we count it as a victory to Slaughter. We still get choices but we're still under Aatrox's Influence. We have to legitimately fight NOT to be evil instead of just being evil by default? Obviously this system would need refinement, just how much of a gap is necessary, but I like the idea in theory.
Edited by Kaynunot, Dec 21 2014, 01:09 PM.
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Zondervain
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Invoker
I'm very done with this arc. I've won THREE of the matches I've been in. . . THREE. Two of which were featured matches with our resident Urgod. So, I haven't really been having a whole lot of fun with this arc in the matches. So, understandably I'm ok with going psycho with Aatrox.... which fails. Miserably. We have Krocylea where we lose by THREE POINTS. Now, I know that's not anybody's fault, because it is all RNG, but it certainly doesn't help my feelings about factions. Then we get to Stormhaven with our 100 military- 100 MILITARY?!?! Where the hell did we LOSE 50 military!?!? We just went through Daeyux and Neritum where we should've gained troops! Wait. Bilgewater has a larger than military than us?!?!

Do you see what I'm going through? Ya'll seem to make up rules then toss them to the side often, so while I know you guys don't have any favoritism at all, it gets hard to believe the truth.

EDIT: Ok, I am calmer now. Sorry for the outburst. Still a bit exasperated though. Personally I'd like to be able to choose to be good guys as the SI. (As much as is possible) I remember a post Mike made about how our laws are hated, while others are loved even though they are similar in context, and I also remember something (I think silencer?) someone said about how they'd like to make an undead civilization eventually and I'd like to be given at least the option to do that. And for Gods sakes don't instantly think we all want to join the alliance with Noxus and Zaun ;-;.
Edited by Zondervain, Dec 21 2014, 01:48 PM.
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ChroniclerC
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Submit to the Void
Kuronan
Dec 21 2014, 01:03 PM
Perhaps in future arcs, Shadow Isles not be given insane research and espionage stuff and just gets asked 'Okay, you have an army, how do you want to use it?' Because it really is our thing to just use our army and abandon everything else as those stats still aren't worthwhile enough to invest in. One of the things we'll need to discuss during intermission is making alternative uses of good stats... Kuronan mutters something unintelligble under his breath.
Yeah. I feel each stat should be reviewed and be given multiple usefull options on what you can do with it. Espionage and Military currently share the same problem in that, outside of lore events that specifically call for them, they're only really useful in PvP. So when all we had was military, of course we went straight for PvP, that's the only thing it's good for. Ditto for Espionage. "Do you want to do something mean, or do nothing?"
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StormRevolver
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Magus
i would be fine if we just asume that we had not enough troops to properly fight bilge, and in this case we were going the karthus route from krocy.
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CupcakeTrap
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Zondervain
Dec 21 2014, 01:24 PM
Personally I'd like to be able to choose to be good guys as the SI. (As much as is possible) I remember a post Mike made about how our laws are hated, while others are loved even though they are similar in context, and I also remember something (I think silencer?) someone said about how they'd like to make an undead civilization eventually and I'd like to be given at least the option to do that. And for Gods sakes don't instantly think we all want to join the alliance with Noxus and Zaun ;-;.
I'm working my way through the troop recount now. It is proving more difficult than I anticipated. I'll try my best to finish it.

However, I've also posted a proposed resolution here:
Quote:
 

  • I'll finish this freaking recount just so that we know.
  • We write Stormhaven as Aatrox being banished or possibly eaten by a kraken, allowing the more Karthus-y types to retake control. (He isn't MIA'd, because, uh, he rematerializes in the Institute to sulk and get his anger out on the Fields.)
  • Focus on the final lore events. SI does need a role in this story, and the most obvious one is for them to act as gatekeeper for the dead: only they have the necromantic power to decide what happens with the souls of the slain Nyrothians. That can be the centerpiece of negotiations. (Maybe Ionia would have some lesser ability to do something with some of the Nyrothian spirits.)

I think that might actually make for a better story. (I'm thinking we could have Mr. Chompers throw a Bilgewater galleon into Stormhaven, have Gangplank help a Summoner who's trying to ignite a zombie-beast by chucking a bottle of flammable rum into it, have Aatrox try to duel Jax who's fishing on the pier, then have Aatrox get eaten by a kraken, ending with Nami doing her OCEANS SPILL FORTH thing. Then SI falls back. Then focus my remaining time/energy today on crafting good lore events for the factions.)

Still, I'll keep computing crab reinforcements for the time being. I'll see if I can finish it in another hour.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 01:55 PM.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

CupcakeTrap
Dec 21 2014, 10:57 AM
So, then imagine the thread in the Bilgewater forum. "Wait, these numbers are wrong. We checked, and just counting up all the military gains Bilgewater made on island explorations, we had more like 120 Strength than 70 Strength. That's 50 Strength you just 'forgot' to include."
Where are these numbers coming from? I went through all the island explorations and I don't see how Bilge could have gotten 120 military.

Avalon: start - 5
gain - 10
Total - 15 (all totals listed are not counting losses taken in fighting, just adding the starting value with value gained)

Emain Alblach: start - 22 (7 higher from end of Avalon)
gain - 0
Total - 22

Aeaea: Start - 42 (20 higher from end of Emain Albach)
gain - 5
total - 47

Mag Mell: Start - not given
Gain - 10
Total - (using military from Aeaea and adding 10) 57

Krocylea: Start 71 (14 higher than end of Mag Mell)
Commerce spending
Gain - 31 mercs
Total - 71 (hit max unit count, excess mercs will replace future losses)

Mag Mell Revisit: Start - 71
gain - 0
total - 71 (used extra mercs to replenish loses)

Aeaea Revist: Start - 71
gain - 0
Total - 71

Stormhaven: Start - 81 (10 higher than end of Aeaea Revisit and past the max unit count given to them at Krocylea)

*All numbers used are from official posts to Leaguefactions.net*

That's 51 military strength that is unaccounted for. Granted they did have the chance to hire mercs in between events, but at Krocylea (before hiring the 33 mercs) they had 186 commerce (143 spent on multiple tasks), which would suggest they would have to not spend much commerce in order to achieve such a high stat.

Giving Bilgewater absolute best conditions (assuming only losses taken were on Mag Mell revist, they could in fact go higher than the 71 military cap given earlier, and the 51 unaccounted strength was legitimately all hired mercs) that would mean that somehow in the course of the couple of days between the revisits and the stormhaven fight, Bilge somehow gained 39 strength to get 120 total strength.

Now, I wanted to rage like hell over what happened leading up to Stormhaven, but I have restrained myself a lot as I know Cupcake is already getting more salt than anyone really should even receive, but I do not see where any of these numbers from Stormhaven are coming from. It was announced that Freljord, Ionia, and Shadow Isles would receive military reinforcements from Valoran after Krocylea, but after voting and discussing with this premise we find out this was canceled and no one was told till it was too late to do anything.

Based on all the information given to everyone Shadow Isles should have ended up with at least 151 military (not counting Aatrox bonuses) through mainland reinforcements, industry rewards from Krocylea, and military gains in the island revisits, while Bilge should have had 71 military strength. But then, major changes in numbers and mechanics drop SI down to 96 with Bilge at 118.

There are multiple things that do not add up. For starters, why cancel the mainland reinforcements, and then why not tell anyone about canceling them until after all decisions have been locked in. Then comes, where the heck did Bilge get all this military randomly?

Now I am sorry for adding more salt into the pot, Cupcake, but I am really just looking at all of these numbers and going WTF.
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CupcakeTrap
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Mike: I know what you mean. I had the same reaction. "How the fuck did Bilgewater get over 100 Military?!" was something I exclaimed multiple times.

For Bilgewater's island pickups, check the "Bilgewater Units" tab in the Faction Standings GDoc.

For SI, I'm currently doing a complete line-by-line recount. Here's the GDoc. I am including mainland reinforcements. I'm also reversing the changes to raised units, which will now be counted as "reward" units (and thus not use up capacity, and which can be reinforced if lost: i.e., every raised unit is a buff to SI military capacity).

There are more calculations in the Stormhaven resolution GDoc.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 21 2014, 02:29 PM.
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silencermage
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Research and Devlelopment
I just want to say that I like the idea of giving SI control of all of the nyrothian souls as compensation because I understand how just saying redo could cause massive problems among community memebers.
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