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Why do we keep associating ourselves with SI?; Honest question.
Topic Started: Dec 21 2014, 12:30 PM (804 Views)
LordHippoman
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So, I'm pretty new to Factions, joined up about a month ago, so I'm maybe (Read: Probably) missing something.

Shadow Isles summoned Aatrox and decided to attack the Freljord, causing the Void thing. We told them that if they decided to massacre the Krocyleans, we weren't backing them up. Then SI decided to massacre them, so we bombed them.

SI turns around and assaults Stormhaven, described by Cupcake as the "psycho option" in the thread. Okay. We beat them off and save the port.

There seem to be a lot of people trying to console SI, telling them it's cool, we can still have a good relationship, perhaps an alliance.

Pourquoi? SI has made it super clear that they prefer to press the "EVIL" button and take advantage of all opportunities to raise more corpses. They attacked our port. And it's not like they're a superpower or anything, on the scale of villains they're more Veigar than Swain. But we seem to be far more against allying with Ionia or Freljord? The two nations that haven't raised an avatar of war, tried to slaughter thousands of innocents, and then attack Stormhaven for shits and giggles?

I can't see anything they've done that makes them somehow worth trusting. Let's leave Team Spooky Bones and find a better partner in the world.
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Wizard996
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The Isles was on rather good terms with us before Krocylea. Granted, they did oppose one petition at the start, but that was it until this moment. We helped them with Neritum and generally didn't crap over them when they were down, our summoners have generally gotten along well with theirs, and they (vainly, albeit nicely) supported some of our petitions. It was ONLY at Krocylea that things started in the 'Evil, kill all!' bit, as they were getting sick of trying to be at least nicer (for Isles) and were getting put through the wringer for it.

They're certainly not a superpower, but they are also pretty much the only faction that's "alone" in Valoran (Demacia/Pilt/Bandle, Noxus/Zaun, Ionia is generally neutral, leaning towards DPB, Freljord is allied with Demacia, Bilge HEAVILY leaning to Zaun, and the Isles only has the Void for comfort). We were showing them more courtesy than the other factions, and we kinda liked them.

Also, I'm not sure how many people got it by now, but they were literally given only Slaughter and Conquer options. Both were practically enslavement, but with conquer they feared it would only create second-class citizens, and wanted to raise them to their level of undeath.

They aren't necessarily always evil, but they are misunderstood, HEAVILY prejudiced against, and they were desperate and wanted to win the only way they know how: military. They have no other good stat besides industry, so their mindset is that they tried the more Karthus/Yorick-y options, and are open to seizing victory with their own hands.

I do not condone their attack on us (and to be fair, they were egged on a bit and told they would almost roll over, only to find out post-decision the numbers were gonna change), and they should be pitied in some respect. They're almost like the Bandle of last arc, except not little betrayorldes, and we should try to understand why they have chosen this path.

Are you telling me Freljord ISN'T pressing evil button though? They've been second only to us, making us their biggest rival, and they ALSO did the Rune magic. The Isles did it because they wanted to balance it since they knew the Freljord would do it as their only chance of winning. Moreover, the Isles was willing to kill either kingdom, but the Frel opposed letting a single side claim victory, instead being stubborn and uncooperative in the Isle's own efforts at peace.

The Isles have tried to avoid pressing that button. The Freljord has shown that it didn't trust Ionia in the lore event where they had the option to (Argyre 2), and many are salivating over creating yordle fur coats, and are completely unwilling to deal with their consequences.

The Isles beat back the Void, Freljord did pretty much nothing. If they so chose, they could have re-created Discord, but instead they get slammed for trying to continue with what happened before the Rift. They're hurt, alone, and desperate. Do you truly blame them for their recklessness?
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LordHippoman
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Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 12:51 PM

The Isles beat back the Void, Freljord did pretty much nothing. If they so chose, they could have re-created Discord, but instead they get slammed for trying to continue with what happened before the Rift. They're hurt, alone, and desperate. Do you truly blame them for their recklessness?
Entirely blame them. They've decided that since Nyroth isn't going their way, might as well just blow up everything and then blame someone else when it doesn't go right. ("We HAD to summon Aatrox, We HAD to attack Stormhaven") They had their chance to go with Karthus and pals and use this as a chance to give the undead more of a reason to not be considered monsters, but they chose to grab onto Thresh's coattails and go on a slaughter spree. We stopped them from killing a port full of civilians.

They dug (redug?) their own grave. Bury them in it.

I'll give you Freljord, though. I think Ionia would be the better choice if we were to make an alliance. We've been trying to show Zaun that they don't own us, right?


((Is my opinion from purely a Lore perspective. I do feel bad for some of the people on their side in real life (Summoning Aatrox was a good numbers move), of course, but in universe, no sympathy for their actions. The numbers thing is a shame, though, even if we did win. But a repoll might be a good idea, but I'll leave that up to the staff.)
Edited by LordHippoman, Dec 21 2014, 01:26 PM.
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C Drive
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It also helps to not have the best military force in the arc angry at you when you're the worst military force in the arc. While we aren't nice to them now, we certainly don't want to give them a reason to be angry. Hence why the whole "hey man, you attacked our port but it's cool dawg" thing is something.

Plus, it's not like SI had anything better to do. They know that if they continued to blockade Yoroth, then we certainly would have teamed up with Frel and Ionia in an attempt to get at the continent, but if they attacked us they would almost certainly have to only deal with us, as Ionia and Frel don't have the resources, nor the rapport with us, to assist.

Part of the problem was having a faction that is perceived as evil in an arc with a neutral faction and two good (maybe occasionally neutral) factions. They have only one possible faction to team up with, the neutral, and it's arguably more beneficial for the neutral to team up with the two goods. The most they could honestly expect from a neutral faction in this scenario was support for anything mild, no assistance for somewhat impactful things, and a high likelihood of resistance from extreme actions. So they were, for all intents and purposes, alone from the beginning.
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Wizard996
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LordHippoman
Dec 21 2014, 01:02 PM
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 12:51 PM

The Isles beat back the Void, Freljord did pretty much nothing. If they so chose, they could have re-created Discord, but instead they get slammed for trying to continue with what happened before the Rift. They're hurt, alone, and desperate. Do you truly blame them for their recklessness?
Entirely blame them. They've decided that since Nyroth isn't going their way, might as well just blow up everything and then blame someone else when it doesn't go right. ("We HAD to summon Aatrox, We HAD to attack Stormhaven")

They dug (redug?) their own grave. Bury them in it.

I'll give you Freljord, though. I think Ionia would be the better choice if we were to make an alliance. We've been trying to show Zaun that they don't own us, right?
Okay, let me address this:

I refuse to pat the Isles on the back for their attack on us. However, look at it this way: Bilge can just power through with commerce. We can research faster, get more influence/favor, purchase mercenaries, etc. We have chosen to invest heavily in research, with Nami as a leader, getting scholars as first option, going with Marai and increasing research with them, picking up Desmeya, etc. As a result of our commerce, we can be well-rounded in literally any stat we choose, and our research allows us to make a crapton of successful checks, while getting projects to boost other stats. The Isles has military and industry. Until the Mag Mell/other islands round of exploration, industry wasn't even a thing in those events. All they could rely on was military as a strong suit, almost forcing them to use it over and over to make up for poor other stats. They didn't HAVE to summon Aatrox, but it was a wise numbers move. They didn't HAVE to attack us, but at the time the numbers were different and they were told they would almost certainly win, so they really didn't see a better option. They saw that particular event as a way to 'punish' us for bombarding them on Krocylea, and take the strongest faction down a peg while giving them the ability to destroy the others.
Again, "They've decided that since Nyroth isn't going their way, might as well just blow up everything and then blame someone else when it doesn't go right."
Bilge has had EVERYTHING go right for us. Don't become biased and start stroking your mustache while proclaiming they are whining brats. As stated earlier, military takeover is the ONLY THING THEY CAN DO RIGHT WITH THEIR STATS. They can't win on the fields, and without military, can't win off them. Seriously, in my mind, that statement made you sound a bit like a prick. They haven't played the blame game; they merely stated they saw the only reasonable option left as playing off their strength.

Ionia isn't a poor alliance choice, I'll admit, but I doubt they want to bed with us after leaning towards Zaun/Noxus.

No, we're not trying to show Zaun they don't own us. That's Noxus. Zaun and Bilge could become a commerical and industrial empire, and we are extremely keen on forging a beautiful relationship with them. They have an army, we have a navy. They have industry, we have commerce. They have research, and with Nami, we have some, while getting good favor. It's a great mix actually.

I also have to agree with CDrive in that the Isles were perceived as evil since the start, and it didn't help that Ionia is 'good' and Freljord aligned with Demacia is 'good' and Bilge is neutral (piratey=evil, merfold=good, it balances out a bit). But now we're playing good for the most part, and the Isles has no one to turn to. I honestly feel bad for them. I truly do. Most of them do support Karthus and his somewhat neutrality, but we overlook that because they have the stigma of being evil.
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LordHippoman
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Sorry, I just don't see a real reason to consider the people who straight up, no proxies or excuses, invaded our port and tried to slaughter our innocent civilians neutral or misunderstood.

((I meant their choices were awful in character. Not game strategy wise. This was meant to be from an in universe perspective. I'm not saying we should hold anything against the SI summoners in real life. Just in-universe. The "blaming others" thing was meant to be in universe, where SI is pointing fingers at Frel for the events on Krocylea and deciding to blockade the central island. Not out of character. Just roleplaying a bit))
Edited by LordHippoman, Dec 21 2014, 01:57 PM.
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Wizard996
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This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
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LordHippoman
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Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 01:49 PM
This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
Ah. My bad, probably should have put this in RP then, but I figured Lore discussion was the closest thing to it on the Bilgewater Private section.
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TerraBooma
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Personally I think we should just resume what the plan was after Krocelya. Neutrality and non-agression for everyone.

From a tactical standpoint, I can completely understand why SI would attack stormhaven, with the numbers they thought they had, (And how Aatrox made the navy nothing more then a joke) We would have been easy enough to roll over, and if they could use Stormhaven as a base of operations, steamrolling Friel and Ionia would be easy. Our navy would still be around, but without an army Aatrox made it useless.

It was a desperation move, and it failed, I can't imagine how down SI must be feeling right now. So while in universe our summoners might be PO'd (Heck mine even LIVED in Stormhaven.) Let's give them a break. No fun hitting a guy while he's down. Even for pirates.
Edited by TerraBooma, Dec 21 2014, 02:03 PM.
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XalkXolc
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TerraBooma
Dec 21 2014, 02:02 PM
Personally I think we should just resume what the plan was after Krocelya. Neutrality and non-agression for everyone.

From a tactical standpoint, I can completely understand why SI would attack stormhaven, with the numbers they thought they had, (And how Aatrox made the navy nothing more then a joke) We would have been easy enough to roll over, and if they could use Stormhaven as a base of operations, steamrolling Friel and Ionia would be easy. Our navy would still be around, but without an army Aatrox made it useless.

It was a desperation move, and it failed, I can't imagine how down SI must be feeling right now. So while in universe our summoners might be PO'd (Heck mine even LIVED in Stormhaven.) Let's give them a break. No fun hitting a guy while he's down. Even for pirates.
Honor among thieves, everyone. Let's just get back to business as usual. No point hurting SI even more.
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Wizard996
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LordHippoman
Dec 21 2014, 01:58 PM
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 01:49 PM
This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
Ah. My bad, probably should have put this in RP then, but I figured Lore discussion was the closest thing to it on the Bilgewater Private section.
Don't worry about it. Sorry if I snapped at you a bit, didn't realize you were trying to RP. I mean, you could if you wanted to I suppose, as long as you show that it's an RP beforehand, like putting it in topic title. However, isn't as much fun as when goofing off with everyone else, and that's why the Roleplay forum is so much fun at times (can't wait for Adventure to end humorously with this 'Who's steering this ship!??' incident).
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 04:27 PM
LordHippoman
Dec 21 2014, 01:58 PM
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 01:49 PM
This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
Ah. My bad, probably should have put this in RP then, but I figured Lore discussion was the closest thing to it on the Bilgewater Private section.
Don't worry about it. Sorry if I snapped at you a bit, didn't realize you were trying to RP. I mean, you could if you wanted to I suppose, as long as you show that it's an RP beforehand, like putting it in topic title. However, isn't as much fun as when goofing off with everyone else, and that's why the Roleplay forum is so much fun at times (can't wait for Adventure to end humorously with this 'Who's steering this ship!??' incident).
MWAHAHA! I HAVE SOWN CHAOS!
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Jpdaniel
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We've GOT to have GOLD
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 01:49 PM
This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
We don't?

((I've been doing that this whole time. Why didn't anyone tell me?))

Anyways, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY WE DO. LIKE SERIOUSLY NONE.
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Wizard996
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Jpdaniel
Dec 21 2014, 07:40 PM
Anyways, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY WE DO. LIKE SERIOUSLY NONE.
Well, at least I personally don't make every attempt to say what my Summoner would. I just don't see the point in doing it EVERY forum topic.

Anyways, besides my greatly illustrated points above, I have solved the mystery of the pirate zombies.
What's on the Jolly Roger? A skull. What's the SI's main symbol? A skull. The Isles are trying to bring us back to Bilgewater's ancient heritage of the true scourge of the seas; The Flying Dutchman. They're secretly trying to HELP us all along. Plot twist confirmed. How many spirits are there on the Harrowing SI Icon? 3. What are we doing here? Solving a conspiracy, not unlike Valve. Why Valve? Is it a coincidence that Steam and favorite games has been brought up today, the 21st? 2+1=3, forum topic is Valve, 3 spooky ghosts, 2 conspiracies, SI secretly helping Bilge. What does this all mean? HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED.
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C Drive
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Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 08:12 PM
Jpdaniel
Dec 21 2014, 07:40 PM
Anyways, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY WE DO. LIKE SERIOUSLY NONE.
Well, at least I personally don't make every attempt to say what my Summoner would. I just don't see the point in doing it EVERY forum topic.

Anyways, besides my greatly illustrated points above, I have solved the mystery of the pirate zombies.
What's on the Jolly Roger? A skull. What's the SI's main symbol? A skull. The Isles are trying to bring us back to Bilgewater's ancient heritage of the true scourge of the seas; The Flying Dutchman. They're secretly trying to HELP us all along. Plot twist confirmed. How many spirits are there on the Harrowing SI Icon? 3. What are we doing here? Solving a conspiracy, not unlike Valve. Why Valve? Is it a coincidence that Steam and favorite games has been brought up today, the 21st? 2+1=3, forum topic is Valve, 3 spooky ghosts, 2 conspiracies, SI secretly helping Bilge. What does this all mean? HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED.
Did you know we all have a skeleton inside of us :o SI spies confirmed.
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CupcakeTrap
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LordHippoman
Dec 21 2014, 01:58 PM
Wizard996
Dec 21 2014, 01:49 PM
This isn't the RP forums. We don't need to use (()) for stuff. This is largely about speaking our mind in general, rather than an in-depth 'In-game, my Summoner thinks this, while OOC, I think this...' type of deal.
Ah. My bad, probably should have put this in RP then, but I figured Lore discussion was the closest thing to it on the Bilgewater Private section.
You know, there really should be an in-universe subtopic in the faction subforums. We should do that for next arc.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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You know, at least SI still got stuff from this arc. Last arc they were in they also failed miserably, and the league straight up removed them from the dispute. Getting a couple islands on their side is a hell of a lot better than getting kicked out of the arc.
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