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Rules for Language?; Clarification
Topic Started: Dec 27 2014, 06:54 PM (1,117 Views)
LordHippoman
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Invoker
So, Factions is part of the LoL community. And sadly, the LoL community is, in general, really hostile and foulmouthed.

Is there a policy in Factions for language? I don't really mean to focus on cursing, because nobody really gets ruffled by cursing in a video game online, but more about homophobia, racism, sexism, etc.

League fans don't have the best track record with this kind of thing, and while I think most of factions is pretty damn good about avoiding it, I'm sure it happens. (Hell, there was some homophobic shit in the chat recently when I was checking for matches.)
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
Always put a smiley face after everything you say :)
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Jpdaniel
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We've GOT to have GOLD
I will find you, cut you up into little pieces and eat everything that once was you and then vomit it back into a ditch :)

Hey, it works!
Edited by Jpdaniel, Dec 27 2014, 08:02 PM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
It would be appreciated if we could dispense with the homophobic/racist/sexist language. I don't mind curse words at all, but the slurs get extremely tiresome.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
How would we punish Bigots though? Like, what do we do about that? Do we add Bigotry to the 'Toxic' list?

I'm glad this is not, as I expected, a discussion preaching 'OMG WE SHOULDN'T SWEAR!' for some stupid reason but legitimately seeking to remove Unnecessary (I would call it Primitive) Hatreds over things that have absolutely no meaning online.
Edited by Kaynunot, Dec 27 2014, 10:39 PM.
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LordHippoman
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Kuronan
Dec 27 2014, 10:39 PM
How would we punish Bigots though? Like, what do we do about that? Do we add Bigotry to the 'Toxic' list?

I'm glad this is not, as I expected, a discussion preaching 'OMG WE SHOULDN'T SWEAR!' for some stupid reason but legitimately seeking to remove Unnecessary (I would call it Primitive) Hatreds over things that have absolutely no meaning online.
This was the biggest question for me too. Like, you can't really ban someone from a public chat like the one used to organize Factions, and dumping EVEN MORE work on cupcake and pals is a lot to ask for, with all they already do.

And yeah, I don't really care about swears or whatever, it's the racial slurs and whatnot that make me go "Umm..."
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Sexy Soraka
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A delicious porkchop.
ShadowKnight1224
Dec 27 2014, 08:55 PM
It would be appreciated if we could dispense with the homophobic/racist/sexist language. I don't mind curse words at all, but the slurs get extremely tiresome.
But that's how I communicate. :(
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AbiwonKenabi
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LordHippoman
Dec 28 2014, 01:09 AM
Kuronan
Dec 27 2014, 10:39 PM
How would we punish Bigots though? Like, what do we do about that? Do we add Bigotry to the 'Toxic' list?

I'm glad this is not, as I expected, a discussion preaching 'OMG WE SHOULDN'T SWEAR!' for some stupid reason but legitimately seeking to remove Unnecessary (I would call it Primitive) Hatreds over things that have absolutely no meaning online.
This was the biggest question for me too. Like, you can't really ban someone from a public chat like the one used to organize Factions, and dumping EVEN MORE work on cupcake and pals is a lot to ask for, with all they already do.

And yeah, I don't really care about swears or whatever, it's the racial slurs and whatnot that make me go "Umm..."
This is where I think it would be nice to have new, dedicated staff member for this, like one person in charge of player behavior. The more staff we have, the less work its going to be for everyone. Just look at these forums: CCT of course has final say on these forums, but he doesn't have to worry about running them at all. He just says, "Do this" and CrazyMLC and Mastokune (and others) take care of it, headache free.

Obviously the idea of policing our own community needs some thought, but we can certainly prevent them from playing Factions games. Maybe some sort of summoner blacklist? Its not perfect but, it would help punish behavior we don't agree with.
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CupcakeTrap
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I have no problem with profanity, because sometimes it really helps you make your fucking point. (For some reason, I've abstained from all profanity in Factions lore updates. Maybe tone?)

That said, I've taken aside (or directed Mike to take aside) casters and streamers who use homophobic or racist words. Anyone who uses such words in-game should leave the match with 9 Reports. While I don't want to start a "Factions mini-tribunal", I'd even be open to having a "report form" that could be manually reviewed, not so much for the ambiguous "was this person being a jerk when they called Swain's build bad" case but for the clear-cut "this person used auto-punish words".

I would be very hesitant to adopt any kind of "no being a jerk" rule, not because I think people should be jerks, but because those rules are so dangerous. It's very easy for "nice" to become defined as "opinions the staff approves of" and "jerk" to mean "someone who upsets the staffers". Pretty soon, critiquing policy becomes a "jerk" move, because of "the way you said it". (I've been there.) But I do think that there are some clear-cut examples of toxic, abusive speech that should be banned.

Here's my proposed list of forbidden words for Factions, because I think when you regulate speech you need to have really bright and clear rules, even if it means some false negatives:


  • fag, gay, homo, and their variants (I do not for a second buy the argument about "I don't mean like actual gay people, and I totally have a friend who's gay; I'm just using "gay" in the sense of like "stupid" or "annoying"." I find the idea that "I'm just using this word coined for a minority that's historically faced persecution and ridicule as a generic word for 'bad'" remarkably unpersuasive.)
  • nigger and its variants, and similar ethnic slurs (see parenthetical above)
  • jew used in the manner of the above words ("hey let's start mocking jews as greedy jerks" has been shown to be a pretty unhealthy attitude for a society to adopt)
  • rape used in the sense of "pwn" (because seriously, we don't need to go making a joke out of rape to talk about how Urgot's winning botlane. It's pretty unsettling to use "rape" in not just a jokey but indeed a positive light: "gj Warwick, you totally raped them bot" should, I think, weird people out. Why is "you murdered them bot" more okay? Mostly because there's not a massive social discourse that holds that people who get murdered were asking for it. Besides, for reasons good and bad, sexual imagery is much more regulated than violent imagery.)


Those are the only three I feel really strongly about. I think "retarded" is uncouth, and should be discouraged, but I don't think it quite makes the list.

As for how we'd go about implementing this sort of thing, I think one step might be coming up with a published list of rules, then (as a start) asking all staffers to share in enforcing it.

There actually are already language rules in the tournament rules:

Quote:
 
Conduct and Language

Summoners who engage in a little friendly all-chat banner, compliment others, or otherwise add to the enjoyment being had by players and viewers alike will win my appreciation and favor, possibly in the form of video clips of red pandas playing in snow. Anyone who rages, whines, or otherwise behaves in a toxic manner is to be reported by all other Summoners, and may be suspended or expelled from Factions.

Since this is a common problem in the gaming community, it bears special mention that the use of discriminatory slurs will be punished especially harshly. Also, please find a better word than “rape” — pwn, stomp, wreck, whatever.

Enforcement. The penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct will vary based on its severity and degree of culpability. Staff may simply issue a formal warning in some cases. For repeated or otherwise sufficiently severe violations of this rule, a Summoner may be suspended or permanently banned from future Featured Matches.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Dec 28 2014, 11:49 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Thanks, CCT. It's really reassuring that you and the staff care about this. I've left many a gaming community when they were like "lol who cares about slurs, everybody does it", and it's really good that Factions isn't like that.
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StormRevolver
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Magus
i can still call people stoopid! \o/ XD
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Vespertinity
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CupcakeTrap
Dec 28 2014, 11:36 AM
Here's my proposed list of forbidden words for Factions, because I think when you regulate speech you need to have really bright and clear rules, even if it means some false negatives:


  • fag, gay, homo, and their variants (I do not for a second buy the argument about "I don't mean like actual gay people, and I totally have a friend who's gay; I'm just using "gay" in the sense of like "stupid" or "annoying"." I find the idea that "I'm just using this word coined for a minority that's historically faced persecution and ridicule as a generic word for 'bad'" remarkably unpersuasive.)
  • nigger and its variants, and similar ethnic slurs (see parenthetical above)
  • jew used in the manner of the above words ("hey let's start mocking jews as greedy jerks" has been shown to be a pretty unhealthy attitude for a society to adopt)
  • rape used in the sense of "pwn" (because seriously, we don't need to go making a joke out of rape to talk about how Urgot's winning botlane. It's pretty unsettling to use "rape" in not just a jokey but indeed a positive light: "gj Warwick, you totally raped them bot" should, I think, weird people out. Why is "you murdered them bot" more okay? Mostly because there's not a massive social discourse that holds that people who get murdered were asking for it. Besides, for reasons good and bad, sexual imagery is much more regulated than violent imagery.)


Those are the only three I feel really strongly about. I think "retarded" is uncouth, and should be discouraged, but I don't think it quite makes the list.
Can we add sexist language to the list as well?
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StormRevolver
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might as well add the whole english language! everyone has to speak lets see .. French! muhahahaha XD
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Vespertinity
Dec 29 2014, 04:41 AM
Can we add sexist language to the list as well?


Yeah, can't believe I missed that when I read over the post.

StormRevolver
Dec 29 2014, 07:11 AM
might as well add the whole english language! everyone has to speak lets see .. French! muhahahaha XD


Cute.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Dec 29 2014, 12:23 PM.
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CupcakeTrap
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Vespertinity
Dec 29 2014, 04:41 AM
CupcakeTrap
Dec 28 2014, 11:36 AM
Here's my proposed list of forbidden words for Factions, because I think when you regulate speech you need to have really bright and clear rules, even if it means some false negatives:


  • fag, gay, homo, and their variants (I do not for a second buy the argument about "I don't mean like actual gay people, and I totally have a friend who's gay; I'm just using "gay" in the sense of like "stupid" or "annoying"." I find the idea that "I'm just using this word coined for a minority that's historically faced persecution and ridicule as a generic word for 'bad'" remarkably unpersuasive.)
  • nigger and its variants, and similar ethnic slurs (see parenthetical above)
  • jew used in the manner of the above words ("hey let's start mocking jews as greedy jerks" has been shown to be a pretty unhealthy attitude for a society to adopt)
  • rape used in the sense of "pwn" (because seriously, we don't need to go making a joke out of rape to talk about how Urgot's winning botlane. It's pretty unsettling to use "rape" in not just a jokey but indeed a positive light: "gj Warwick, you totally raped them bot" should, I think, weird people out. Why is "you murdered them bot" more okay? Mostly because there's not a massive social discourse that holds that people who get murdered were asking for it. Besides, for reasons good and bad, sexual imagery is much more regulated than violent imagery.)


Those are the only three I feel really strongly about. I think "retarded" is uncouth, and should be discouraged, but I don't think it quite makes the list.
Can we add sexist language to the list as well?
That's mostly why I included "rape". I thought about other sex-related language, but nothing seemed as obvious as those other words, i.e., obvious enough that I'd be inclined to say "use of this word is absolutely prohibited". One could, without running afoul of this list, say something like, "This LB is fucking awful. Fucking piece of trash. She should stop playing Factions until she learns how to play LoL." I'd hope that a moderator would take that person aside and inform them that this sort of thing is not okay, or that the community would, but I wouldn't want to ban "fucking" outright.

With that in mind, other than "rape", I'm not sure I can think of any "auto-punish" gendered words. In a professional or academic context, "bitch" might be completely forbidden, and there are good arguments that we should all stop saying "bitch" because it perpetuates certain restrictive gender norms, but "this dragon is going to be such a bitch to take down at level 5" or "why is MF SUCH A BITCH" seem more like "uncouth things that casters probably shouldn't be saying" than "auto-punish words". I think "cunt" could probably go on the list, since it's a fairly graphic word, and (in the US) has a much angrier, more gendered connotation.
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Matsokune
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Praise Be To Red Owl
I'll step into the conversation for a bit just to say that, with the forum, I've been going by a general "don't be a dick" rule. You can curse all you want that doesn't bother me, but when you get to the derogatory words and things frowned upon by society more than cursing, I draw the line. To emphasize:


  • fag, homo, gay, etc - If you're using to call someone stupid, just call them stupid. It's not hard. Honestly. It's a couple extra letters sometimes.
  • nigger and variants - Again, at least for the term nigger, historically this means stupid. Just call the guy a fucking moron and be done with it.
  • rape/other sexist language - In the terms of pwning, please for the love of everything not stupid just use another word. Anything. I'm impartial to "rekt" myself. Anything else? Leave. No seriously there's the fucking door get the hell out of here. I can stand you calling someone a bitch (well, not if you're casting that's just unprofessional), but if you go down to shaming people over gender I will swing down every hammer I have available.


....alright, I got a bit more ranty on the last bullet. Sorry about that. My points stands though, that shit ain't cool. Back to my general rule though, I can tell when two people are poking at each other (HeavyxDark exists for that sole purpose), but I can also tell when you're legitimately moving to piss someone off. One is okay sometimes and the other is never.
Edited by Matsokune, Dec 30 2014, 04:17 AM.
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Purple Bavarois
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Restless relentlessly.
I was made fun of once for questioning that use of the word "gay" as a synonym of "stupid" or "lame". I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I'm okay with using the word as long as it's not derogatory or has a negative connotation.
I basically agree with Cupcake on everything else.
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