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| Balancing Committee; Groups of deidcated players who will work to make Faction Rosters Balanced for all sides | |
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| Topic Started: Jan 4 2015, 04:32 PM (2,715 Views) | |
| JDmage | Jan 4 2015, 04:32 PM Post #1 |
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
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Hello Factions it is I JD"Insert Something Clever"mage Here! Recently while talking to some friends of mine we came up with an idea that during the intermission and through the next arc, if this plan works, we ask Cupcake to commission dedicated unbiased players to assigning as a group what champions each faction needs to feel like a controlled group. This involves moving some champions from the "Core" to either "Secondary" or "Tertiary", not necessarily removing them from the roster, unless the champion does not belong in the first place. While this post is a way for the community to think over this idea and lend their own ways such a committee like this can function and what duties the staff would undertake in balancing out the rosters. This is not a sign up sheet to be on the committee, I feel that should be handled by Cupcake and some of the senior staff if this idea gains enough of a driving force to be implemented. Any questions ask them down below as well I will try to check often to answer any questions, as many of you know I hate all forums websites. Meaning I feel very passionate about starting up this committee. |
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| LightPhyXer | Jan 4 2015, 07:42 PM Post #2 |
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Conjurer
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While I think this could be an endeavor, and would be willing to lend help if such a committee got started, I don't really see how you could balance the rosters in any real sense without giving up much of the lore aspect of Factions. Part of this is the fault of Riot, of course, for putting a lot of emphasis on nations like Demacia, Noxus, etc. and ignoring Bilgewater, for example, but in the end, how do you determine when a roster is "balanced" against another roster? Winrates? Theorycraft? I personally like the "pick up whatever you got and run with it" feel. I don't really have any complaints about "broken" rosters at the moment, and the only real "brokeness" comes out in maps that are, well, not exactly on Riot's radar at the moment. In the end, it's going to come down to the players. A godlike champion main can carry with that champion, but that doesn't mean the champion is "unbalanced" on the roster. Basically, I just don't think you can reach for "balance" while maintaining lore aspects, and even if you disregard lore aspects, "balancing" is far too vague. |
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| ShadowKnight1224 | Jan 4 2015, 08:03 PM Post #3 |
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
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I would be quite okay with balance from a numbers/lore standpoint (trying to make sure every faction has roughly the same amount of champions in the primary roster, and then moving to secondary or tertiary the type of champions that are only tenuously related to the factions). Balancing from a mechanics stand-point... I like the idea, but I wouldn't know how to do it. I follow some people who do complicated statistical math on champions to advise the community on who are the best bans, and such lists change every patch, often drastically. The balancing would be rather difficult. |
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| JDmage | Jan 4 2015, 09:16 PM Post #4 |
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
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The way I am thinking we balance out rosters are to have each roster have a DEFINITEweakness that they will eitehr have to over come or ignore to try to win, such as the Core roster having 1 tank, or a nonmobile ADC, or even no ADC, such as Bilgewater, Ionia, and SI had for the longest time. While these are In Arc Factions, the premise is there for either some Intermission tailoring or for the next arc. Now lore wise there would not be much of a change, no one from a roster will be removed. And as Light said the fact Riot focused hard on Demacia and Noxus means they will have a larger pool of champions. The idea of the tailoring and balance would mean all factions would have roughly 7-8 champions as a Core roster for an Arc. Intermissions however can just use the full roster including Tertiary and Secondary, if anything to just see which of those champions a faction would want to pick up and use. Example wise would be taking away Ezreal and Lucian from the Core listings of Ionia so Varus is the only ADC, this giving their comp a weak point, while at the same time being able to play around that with a fed Yi, Lee sin, Irelia, or Akali. While at the same time, not allowing Ionia to pick up multiple of the same "Class" of champion, this example being a high mobility ADC. Essentially a kind of what path will you choose when it comes to Arc Story events, You can either choose Lucian or Ezreal, not both when it comes to champion selection. While the "Class" selection will take time, it is a way to label all kinds of champions in how they are supposed to be played. I mean that as, Garen is a sustain tank with bully power, not a magic penetration building mid laner. While Ezreal can go AP and do it effectively, giving Ionia a very mobile AP mid laner and very mobile ADC is something that leaves very few weaknesses, and even those are hard to exploit. Some Factions may need more tapering then others but the idea of this to be a panel of staff to have unbiased agendas when saying "This Roster has no weaknesses that are easy to exploit, therefore before we let them start in the Arc we have to change ______" While eventually a Faction through champion gaining can close up a weakness, it should have to open either new weaknesses, or just not give too little of a chance to win in an evenly skilled match. |
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| StormRevolver | Jan 5 2015, 04:43 AM Post #5 |
Magus
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hmm i think the rosters never meant to be exactly balanced, and it was proven that they really don't have to be the same size. |
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| rinsujo | Jan 5 2015, 12:16 PM Post #6 |
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Winter's Claw for Life.
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I don't like change. I'm on the fence about this idea. While i agree, certain champs just dont belong in certain rosters (looking at you, Ez. Sorry, i dont think looks should justify a roster place) Other champs don't fit outside of lore, but they work(Kalista. SI has a spooky feel, lots of damage and cc. Kalista has less damage but so much mobility... she fits in with looks AND lore, plus SI needs some love) It's a weird place to try making changes. I think Nyroth kind of showed how roster size isnt as important as we thought, but roster comp is. (I really feel bad for SI. There has to be a way to make that kind of comp work, we're just missing it.) I guess it would be a good idea to examine the rosters and try to identify strengths and weaknesses, but if we change those strengths and weaknesses in the name of balance, we're changing the flavor of that faction to adapt gameplay. Observe, identify, sure. Strengthen the weakest factions, sure (SI's ADC woes, Bandle's lack of jungler except mumu). But i dont think we need to actually weaken anyone. Knowing their strongest counterplay should be enough. And on a partially related note WHY DOES BANDLE GET GNAR OVER FREL? He was frozen in true ice, by someone from Frel (presumably Anivia) and has no explicit ties to bandle city other than "He's a pre-historic Yordle" He doesn't speak Yordlish, he doesn't revere the mothership HE DOES NOT FIT IN BANDLE. |
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| Deleted User | Jan 5 2015, 12:30 PM Post #7 |
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Deleted User
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Bandle City gave him more hugs and juice boxes than Freljord. |
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| rinsujo | Jan 5 2015, 12:34 PM Post #8 |
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Winter's Claw for Life.
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Juice boxes maybe. I don't see ANYONE giving more hugs than Braum though. |
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| StormRevolver | Jan 5 2015, 12:41 PM Post #9 |
Magus
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meh gnar can be anywhere. even heimerdinger has interests in him. And i think ezreal can be on ionia in a lore and gameplay sense and thats 2 out of the three points already. both piltover and ionia tried to work with each other, and there was even a forgotten help pact between the two of them in the nyroth arc. in this sense the most obvious would be to send the explorer guild to help ionia. and ezreal is a high mobility champ that fits ionia. if this is not enough then why is mundo and singed on noxus roster?
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 5 2015, 12:46 PM.
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| JDmage | Jan 5 2015, 09:32 PM Post #10 |
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
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The plan is to not fully take a champion off the roster. more of not letting a faction fill up on so many of X types of champions that they have lost all of the counter play needed to beat the faction. such as the 1 ADC that has no mobility, but the other champions of said roster ((Yes Ionia)) can carry without said ADC. There are ways around a composition to make it unique and strong to play as. In terms of SI that is too touchy a subject to mention but my side of it is they had all the tools to win, they just failed to utilize them. |
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| ShadowKnight1224 | Jan 5 2015, 09:49 PM Post #11 |
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
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I don't think this is going to work. If you were to say something like "we will be speaking from a lore or numeric perspective", I would have been fine, but you sound like you want to impose some arbitrary theorycrafting on the rosters with zero tangible evidence to support it. |
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| StormRevolver | Jan 6 2015, 01:37 AM Post #12 |
Magus
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no everyone is just beating on ionia because they won. i think its quite unrequired. ionia was always portrayed with high mobility champs. nobody cared about them untill they won, and now people trying to scrape away every bit of piece they can from them, in the name of balance. This is the general feeling i got |
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| XalkXolc | Jan 6 2015, 08:13 AM Post #13 |
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
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I disagree. I remember discussing the OPness of Ionia's roster back at the beginning of the arc, and that was in response to people complaining about Bilgewater's roster. However, Ionia still had an exploitable weakness at that time: an immobile bot lane. We knew we could badly bully their bot lane to beat them, but once they got Lucian/Ezreal and Sona, games against Ionia became INCREDIBLY frustrating. Problems like that are what JD is trying to prevent. |
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| StormRevolver | Jan 6 2015, 09:45 AM Post #14 |
Magus
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yea high mobility can be frustrating, but thats the main play style of ionia. You want to take that away? its like taking the tankyness away from zaun, or pokes from pilt. And ionia and pilt had to do lore things so they can gain ezreal, and he even fits atleast 2 of the 3 general criteria for champions in a roster. Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 6 2015, 09:49 AM.
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| Tofuology | Jan 6 2015, 11:07 AM Post #15 |
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Nya Nya~
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Yea, that's why we were able to exploit the "op" comp Ionia had early on, right? =\ Even with our immobile ADC, and being able to have our mobile champs "carry", it still wasn't happening for us. Hell, we didn't really start picking up steam until the Sona pick (but we were still having problems in bot lane, it was still our weakest lane). I can say for sure that Bilge's bot lane was annoying as hell more than any other bot lane comp, but does that mean we should get rid of one of your champs so everyone else has a better QoL? Hell, majority of your champion pickups were "incredibly frustrating" to the point we didn't know what we could do against them. So where was this little "balance intervention" when this occurred? I honestly agree with Storm, and that there seems to be a lot of generated "hate" towards Ionia as of late. Some of it has to do with Ionia winning the arc, and a part of it has to do with last weekend's Dominion domination. If we're going to be gutting Ionia due to their high mobility, then are we going to do the same to the other factions, such as removing cc from Freljord? Or poke from Piltover? I think this whole idea of trying to balance out factions is happening the wrong way. |
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| Kaynunot | Jan 6 2015, 12:42 PM Post #16 |
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
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I honestly feel Factions, in a Balancing Sense, should try leaning more towards 'How can we Buff the weaker factions' rather than 'How can we Nerf the stronger ones' If we even do get into this whole debate. We shouldn't punish a Faction for laying to their strengths but instead offer viable ways to counter it, whether coming up with strategies and compositions for their opponents or giving their Opponents Champions to use against their enemies effectively. People are more likely to Complain and Debate a Direct Nerf, and more likely to Praise an Indirect Nerf. Rather than Nerf Champion Rosters for Factions, it's far more powerful to offer more competitive dynamic choices against them. From a Gameplay Standpoint, we could do this against Ionia by offering a Faction someone with Lockdown. From a Story Standpoint, this can be done by giving a Faction the option to harass Ionia militarily. Let's not be 'Hey, Ionia's kind of OP, here's a Nerf.' and instead be 'Hey, I know Ionia's kind of powerful, here's a buff to fight back with.' Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 6 2015, 12:51 PM.
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| Kwon Ri Sae | Jan 6 2015, 02:27 PM Post #17 |
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Name Changer Extraordinare
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That goes against Rito's motto of "Better nerf the strong champs instead of buffing the weak ones"
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| rinsujo | Jan 6 2015, 02:41 PM Post #18 |
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Winter's Claw for Life.
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You've got that mixed up. Rito's policy is "Better nerf the middle champs." (Irelia, Sona) |
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| Kaynunot | Jan 6 2015, 03:40 PM Post #19 |
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
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Honestly, Riot has to balance like 120+ Champions at this point, it's way easier to swing the Nerf bat for them because they can see what's strong and for what reason than look at what's weak and examine why it fails specifically. In Factions we only have to balance like 10 Factions, it's significantly easier to examine problems and see how we could buff things without altering the gameplay too much. I do have to say though that while I think a Champion should never be removed from a Roster for absolutely any reason aside from MIAs, I am starting to question why Ionia got Lucian anyway. Ezreal, I get. Lucian... Not so much. |
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| JDmage | Jan 6 2015, 04:15 PM Post #20 |
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
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I use Ionia as an example because it is a faction that most recently people can relate to. This committee would be here to preserve all of the faction's individuality, not weaken them to be unfair, but instead to make sure that such factions do not take champions to get rid of their only weakness that were needed to be exploited to win against them. Such as if we had given Soraka to Zaun who would then keep them fully healed up because that would break their roster. Ignoring that this example could never happen other combinations of champions will occur that break a roster in a way that makes it unfun or unfair to fight that roster. Again, I am not just bitching Ionia won, but I am saying that Ionia is a good example of how to give a roster the one thing that took away their exploitable weakness. Edited by JDmage, Jan 6 2015, 04:20 PM.
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12:32 PM Jul 11