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Balancing Committee; Groups of deidcated players who will work to make Faction Rosters Balanced for all sides
Topic Started: Jan 4 2015, 04:32 PM (2,717 Views)
JDmage
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
In terms of balance it does work both ways, nerfs and buffs. Again why we need a committee of unbiased summoners who can agree which champions are needed or not needed to make a roster fun to play. While also realizing when dozens of summoners say we need X champion to fix the roster, you first need to see if those summoners understand what they are talking about and or if they are just losing their matches becasue they are bad and can not figure out how to work with a roster's certain play style.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
I kinda want to argue that Ionia has other exploitable weaknesses, rather than "immobile bot lane." There's a reason our roster held only "solo-queue allstars;" the wombo combo teamfight was missing this arc, since Frel, Bilge, and even SI had a better teamfight.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
There is no such thing as an unbiased group. There is always bias, and while the objective is to minimise it, in this case I don't think that's going to be possible when you're not using any sort of data beyond what those people "feel".
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JDmage
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Inferno Elemental Philanderer
In the case of Ionia their team comp would just ignore big AOE fights, which granted Freljord had the best chance to use in the arc, due to the fact Yi Lee Irelia and Akali were all frequent champions who would ignore a tank line and explode the squishie. Which the summoners did very well and made that comp excel.

With who would be on the committee to regulate this, I would prefer it to be high ranking summoners as well as summoners seen in the community as overall good players and have good opinions. And it is very easy to call out bi-ism with such a group because if we were to never touch a certain broken faction or overly break another, that can be easily called out upon by the community.
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rinsujo
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Winter's Claw for Life.
which is odd, because we won a decent number of games against ionia for a comp they could 'avoid'. I think comps arent as rock-paper-scissors as we think sometimes, and honestly if we actually end up doing this, as kuronan said earlier, we stay away from nerfing the strong teams and stick to buffing the weaker ones. if it's a blatantly obvious attempt to break stuff, i.e. raka on zaun, then clearly nerf it, but otherwise theorycraft against it i'd say. but dont outright nerf strong teams. that's not fun.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
StormRevolver
Jan 6 2015, 01:37 AM
no everyone is just beating on ionia because they won. i think its quite unrequired. ionia was always portrayed with high mobility champs. nobody cared about them untill they won, and now people trying to scrape away every bit of piece they can from them, in the name of balance. This is the general feeling i got
*Nobody cared about them until their bot lane was upgraded to be self sustaining and self peeling and all their previous weaknesses were either removed entirely or wholly overshadowed by newfound strengths.

Giving Ionia a plethora of mobile champs was not a healthy move from a gameplay persepective, and doubly so since all lore relations were incredibly loose at best. I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions. Nobody's looking to shaft Ionia for winning the arc. What we're looking to do is ensure that future champion pickups of factions don't have a patch 4.20 warwick or season 3 kassadin effect on the factions metagame.
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StormRevolver
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Magus
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 7 2015, 12:37 AM
StormRevolver
Jan 6 2015, 01:37 AM
no everyone is just beating on ionia because they won. i think its quite unrequired. ionia was always portrayed with high mobility champs. nobody cared about them untill they won, and now people trying to scrape away every bit of piece they can from them, in the name of balance. This is the general feeling i got
*Nobody cared about them until their bot lane was upgraded to be self sustaining and self peeling and all their previous weaknesses were either removed entirely or wholly overshadowed by newfound strengths.

Giving Ionia a plethora of mobile champs was not a healthy move from a gameplay persepective, and doubly so since all lore relations were incredibly loose at best. I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions. Nobody's looking to shaft Ionia for winning the arc. What we're looking to do is ensure that future champion pickups of factions don't have a patch 4.20 warwick or season 3 kassadin effect on the factions metagame.
yea you liked to beat up si instead.

One of the biggest strategy trough the arc is to pick up champions that strengthen your roster. and ionia did that well. Hell i didnt see any SI summoners going about removing every second champ from the other rosters so we dont have to play "annoying" matches. We can never balance out rosters so there will be no stronger ones or weaker ones, and i think factions never ever pretended that the faction rosters are the same strength. As i said most of you never wanted to balance rosters after or during hextech but now somehow this came up.
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 7 2015, 04:03 AM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
I think about the only person I'd remove from Ionia's roster would be Lucian. He's already a really freakishly powerful champion in pretty much every category save if he's up against like... Caitlyn/Morgana Harassment. Ionia didn't particularly need him after they got Sona and Ezreal, if anything it only encouraged their hyper-mobile duelist meta. I'd be against them getting him again because he's never been in a Weak Place and probably never will be.

Other than that I'd focus on empowering other rosters to give them some ability to fight against Ionia rather than try Nerfing Ionia directly.
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LightPhyXer
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Conjurer
To be fair, there was a huge lore reason for Lucian to become available for Ionia. Also, I don't see how champion pickups can be "balanced" when, presumably, the way it works is that CCT and staff decide on particular champions beforehand for particular events in an arc, like Maokai and Zyra being available for whatever faction managed to get to Jungle Island first, and then have things work out from there. I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach, even if it turned out Bilgewater managed to get Maokai on their roster, which thematically doesn't exactly make sense.

I guess an alternative is to have a large potential roster set up for each faction going into an arc, and event rewards that give a champion would just allow you to pick from that potential roster instead of giving out off-theme champions to whoever managed to trigger that event first. That way, you'd at least get a better sense of where the potential of each faction is heading.



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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
LightPhyXer
Jan 7 2015, 09:00 AM
To be fair, there was a huge lore reason for Lucian to become available for Ionia. Also, I don't see how champion pickups can be "balanced" when, presumably, the way it works is that CCT and staff decide on particular champions beforehand for particular events in an arc, like Maokai and Zyra being available for whatever faction managed to get to Jungle Island first, and then have things work out from there. I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach, even if it turned out Bilgewater managed to get Maokai on their roster, which thematically doesn't exactly make sense.
Actually, Zyra was technically a possible pick-up for Shadow Isles on Neritum if I remember correctly. One of the options was supercharging the plant life to become carnivorous or something like that. Of course we never got the chance to do that and never even got Syndra because we decided the Military was more important (and look how that turned out, a 10 military unit to tick off one of the most beautiful Powerful Sorceresses in the World, I'm ashamed to have voted for Military as an option in the revote :X )

And even if Lucian had a good Lore reason he's not From Ionia and they already had enough Hyper-Duelists, plus Ionia DID work with the Shadow Isles at that Library. The arc's over, time to reset the rosters and frankly I don't think he should become available for Ionia again after this arc, it was only giving Ionia an even stronger botlane which was supposed to be an exploitable weakspot (though let's be honest, Shadow Isles were far more exploitable)
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 7 2015, 12:24 PM.
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StormRevolver
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Magus
hm why/how did ionia get lucian? i forgot.
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Tofuology
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Nya Nya~
StormRevolver
Jan 7 2015, 12:45 PM
hm why/how did ionia get lucian? i forgot.
We destroyed the SI army after the Voidpocalypse, and "Lucian is interested in Ionia after hearing of your feats against SI." And even then, he was never a part of our secondary/tertiary choices, so him being a part of our "roster" is somewhat wrong.

As for Ezreal, he was available throughout the entire arc as a tertiary, and would have become a secondary if we completed Clockwork Monastary (which we almost did, but doesn't matter).

With the intermission rosters, I am fine with how Ionia is. If anything, remove Jax since so many people are complaining about him (in terms of gameplay and his connection to Ionia). But if you consider the original arc roster and their secondary/tertiary picks without adding in feats of accomplishments, then Ionia will have little to nothing in both the secondary and tertiary department if gutting continues.

Ionia is a mobile comp, and it will always be that.


OrderlyAnarchist
 
Giving Ionia a plethora of mobile champs was not a healthy move from a gameplay persepective, and doubly so since all lore relations were incredibly loose at best. I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions. Nobody's looking to shaft Ionia for winning the arc. What we're looking to do is ensure that future champion pickups of factions don't have a patch 4.20 warwick or season 3 kassadin effect on the factions metagame.

This was basically Bilge for 3/4 of the arc when we went against them. So do we ask for you guys to be balanced as well, or are we going to ignore that?
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
StormRevolver
Jan 7 2015, 04:01 AM
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 7 2015, 12:37 AM
StormRevolver
Jan 6 2015, 01:37 AM
no everyone is just beating on ionia because they won. i think its quite unrequired. ionia was always portrayed with high mobility champs. nobody cared about them untill they won, and now people trying to scrape away every bit of piece they can from them, in the name of balance. This is the general feeling i got
*Nobody cared about them until their bot lane was upgraded to be self sustaining and self peeling and all their previous weaknesses were either removed entirely or wholly overshadowed by newfound strengths.

Giving Ionia a plethora of mobile champs was not a healthy move from a gameplay persepective, and doubly so since all lore relations were incredibly loose at best. I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions. Nobody's looking to shaft Ionia for winning the arc. What we're looking to do is ensure that future champion pickups of factions don't have a patch 4.20 warwick or season 3 kassadin effect on the factions metagame.
yea you liked to beat up si instead.

One of the biggest strategy trough the arc is to pick up champions that strengthen your roster. and ionia did that well. Hell i didnt see any SI summoners going about removing every second champ from the other rosters so we dont have to play "annoying" matches. We can never balance out rosters so there will be no stronger ones or weaker ones, and i think factions never ever pretended that the faction rosters are the same strength. As i said most of you never wanted to balance rosters after or during hextech but now somehow this came up.
Actually there were a lot of worries in regards to Demacia picking up top tier competitive champs for every role much the way there were worries last arc in regards to Ionia picking up every solo queue stomp champ.

Also, hostile hyperbole is unbefitting of the situation. At no point have I advocated "removing every second champion from Ionia's roster". If you read anything I posted, I'm not even trying to reduce their strength now. I think that as it is now, their comp is balanced. All I've said is that high mobility adc's have shown to lend Ionia an absurd amount of strength for a lone champion pick up, and this has been displayed not one but TWO arcs now. With many of Ionia's champions remaining favoured picks in the current overall metagame, it's a good idea to keep their potential pick options in check so their options don't become too powerful relative to the other factions. Nobody's looking to screw other factions with balancing. I'm not trying to say Ionia's win was illegitimate because they had Lucian and Ezreal. But I do think we need to remember that factions is typically somewhere between team play and solo queue, and that we can't simply rely on intricate team based counterplay as a case for allowing a team that's THAT solo queue stompy.

You say you think people will still be a little bit biased? Pull some high elo players from every faction then. Deep game knowledge is something that most higher level players are going to have, and I think that using that to ensure champion pick ups will not unbalance our own factions metagame can't possibly be a bad thing.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
Revoluxionist
Jan 7 2015, 06:35 PM
StormRevolver
Jan 7 2015, 12:45 PM
hm why/how did ionia get lucian? i forgot.
We destroyed the SI army after the Voidpocalypse, and "Lucian is interested in Ionia after hearing of your feats against SI." And even then, he was never a part of our secondary/tertiary choices, so him being a part of our "roster" is somewhat wrong.

As for Ezreal, he was available throughout the entire arc as a tertiary, and would have become a secondary if we completed Clockwork Monastary (which we almost did, but doesn't matter).

With the intermission rosters, I am fine with how Ionia is. If anything, remove Jax since so many people are complaining about him (in terms of gameplay and his connection to Ionia). But if you consider the original arc roster and their secondary/tertiary picks without adding in feats of accomplishments, then Ionia will have little to nothing in both the secondary and tertiary department if gutting continues.

Ionia is a mobile comp, and it will always be that.


OrderlyAnarchist
 
Giving Ionia a plethora of mobile champs was not a healthy move from a gameplay persepective, and doubly so since all lore relations were incredibly loose at best. I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions. Nobody's looking to shaft Ionia for winning the arc. What we're looking to do is ensure that future champion pickups of factions don't have a patch 4.20 warwick or season 3 kassadin effect on the factions metagame.

This was basically Bilge for 3/4 of the arc when we went against them. So do we ask for you guys to be balanced as well, or are we going to ignore that?
I didn't have the option of playing against Bilge last arc. If you can explain to me what made the comp so antifun and overbearing to play against, then yeah, I'd definitely consider things. I don't know why people keep talking about us wanting to continue gutting things when I've clearly stated that I'm literally fine with every intermission roster right now, and support this idea simply so we can have some higher level players with deeper game knowledge making sure no potential champion pick ups would be too game breaking. Core champs wouldn't even be in danger. It's just the more questionable pick ups, like Maokai on Bilge, or Lucian on Ionia, or Riven on Pilt etc. That would need to be given a once over before made available to ensure they're not going to ruin everybody's factions fun time. No lone faction is being targeted here.
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theelkspeaks
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Initiate
I think the goal of a balancing team is probably more than anything to rebalance factions by moving champs between Core, Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary rather than by adding and subtracting champs altogether, yes?
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
theelkspeaks
Jan 13 2015, 11:49 AM
I think the goal of a balancing team is probably more than anything to rebalance factions by moving champs between Core, Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary rather than by adding and subtracting champs altogether, yes?
And also to check and see if certain champs should be available tertiary, but yes, you have the gist of this.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
What made Bilge so anti fun to play against is the fact that you were probably going to lose because they were so good :P. They stomped a lot of their games.

Well, actually, the real question is, should it ever be fun to play against a champion/comp that is doing well? I don't think the enemy is meant to have fun when getting stomped.

In fact, what isn't anti fun when losing hard? All factions have champs that do this. Naut proceeds to dive you and literally ignore tower. Karthus takes away half of your entire teams health with an ult. Anivia E's you for half your health, while waveclearing, and if you ever try to kill her, lol nope egg+resistances. Yi 1v5s your team.
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StormRevolver
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Magus
well i dont realy like the general idea because the base of factions is that we do champion rosters based mostly on their story. And as soon as people started talking about balancing, removing champions were the first proposals, and not the other way around.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
StormRevolver
Jan 14 2015, 11:11 AM
well i dont realy like the general idea because the base of factions is that we do champion rosters based mostly on their story. And as soon as people started talking about balancing, removing champions were the first proposals, and not the other way around.
Except nobody's talking about removing champions directly tied to rosters. Their isn't going to be a case to take Irelia off of Ionia because she's op. It's already been proven that the core rosters are generally fine when it comes to balance. The only thing this would be monitoring would be the acquisition of tertiary style champions, who really have no particular connection to the faction beyond some vague theming similarity. Would anybody really be wounded if we decided that not letting Lucian on Ionia, with all his so very intricate ties to the nation (read: all of zero) would be a healthier decision for keeping factions balanced in game and fun to play?
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StormRevolver
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Magus
what is and what is not directly tied is a subjective matter again, and i wasnt talking about specific champions. or you want a whole commitee for 1 champ? i dont mind talking about what belongs where or not, but to have some group of people decide things by themselves, and saying its objective when it is most likely not, doesnt feel like the best idea. And since there are already "untouchable" champions in every faction, its an impossible task too.
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 14 2015, 03:52 PM.
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