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Balancing Committee; Groups of deidcated players who will work to make Faction Rosters Balanced for all sides
Topic Started: Jan 4 2015, 04:32 PM (2,716 Views)
Sodaman64
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It's My Town Now
While there are "Untouchable" champions on every roster, a lot of rosters have some champions that as soon as the faction picks them up the faction get's a massive power spike. Sometimes these pick up make sense like Ezreal for Ionia. But Ionia getting Lucian as a secondary pick up was silly. I think that the reason they got him was due to the hostile rule where depending on your actions during the arc you would have chances to recruit those champions for the rest of the arc, but I always thought that you had to have said champions already recruited to fight vs that faction to get the option.

Honestly I think that their should be a core roster that every Faction is "Reset" to at the start of the next arc. So for example Maokai on Bilgewater. If Bilge were to appear in the next arc I don't think they should have Maokai on their roster anywhere. Lore event pick ups in general should only be in effect for the arc they appear in unless they're something very, very major. (Like Bilgewater rebuilding the Lunari) Also I'm still erally confused why Bigewater has Janna on their intermission roster, did something happen during the arc while I was gone? Or is she just there so that they have another support?

As for a balancing committee I just have some question about that. Who currently decides which factions can obtain which champions during the arcs and intermissions? Is it just CCT and Nagga or are their other people who help decide? I think I heard something about the staff meeting at the start of Nyroth to decide who ends up getting what champs on the final rosters but how much does the decision they come to at that time change throughout the arc? Maybe instead of having a committee that just decides who can have what they act sort of like advisors to CCT and he runs some of the odder champ pick ups past them to see what they think.

/end rant
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Purple Bavarois
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Restless relentlessly.
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
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Wizard996
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Random Silver Scrub
I'm a noob when it comes to some weaknesses, and I'll admit I didn't play as much as I wanted/could have, but I'll try to respond how I saw it.
Nautilus was our jungle for almost the whole arc. Do you have any idea how weak he is in there early game? A good invade could have thrown his ganking ability way off, thereby setting back the lanes that may rely on him for his cc/tankiness.
Kiting may also have done well, provided you can avoid the Naut hooks. Graves was the main ADC we used, and he needs to rush in and burst. I'll admit Nami can mitigate some of that, but she isn't high in HP totals herself. Wipe her out quick, and then Graves is floundering against any poke thrown at him. Similarly, Fizz will just jump over most attempts, but if he wastes it avoiding, ie, Ashe Volley, he has a tougher time jumping in and getting out safely.

On the flipside, what would you say Bilge's strength's were in the arc, other than a highly communicative team?
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
Wizard996
Jan 17 2015, 02:10 PM
I'm a noob when it comes to some weaknesses, and I'll admit I didn't play as much as I wanted/could have, but I'll try to respond how I saw it.
Nautilus was our jungle for almost the whole arc. Do you have any idea how weak he is in there early game? A good invade could have thrown his ganking ability way off, thereby setting back the lanes that may rely on him for his cc/tankiness.
Kiting may also have done well, provided you can avoid the Naut hooks. Graves was the main ADC we used, and he needs to rush in and burst. I'll admit Nami can mitigate some of that, but she isn't high in HP totals herself. Wipe her out quick, and then Graves is floundering against any poke thrown at him. Similarly, Fizz will just jump over most attempts, but if he wastes it avoiding, ie, Ashe Volley, he has a tougher time jumping in and getting out safely.

On the flipside, what would you say Bilge's strength's were in the arc, other than a highly communicative team?
I got this one :P

Bilge had:
•Arguably the strongest teamfight comp
•Well executed dives
•Majority of the veteran players
•High communication early in the arc
•Fairly strong laners who transitioned well into late game
•CC and lockdown.
•A tank in Naut.
•RNG that made GP's 10% crit feel like 50%, and autofailed any espionage attempts against them.
•Innovated the Graves essence reaver build, which led to easy waveclear.

Granted, many of these are gross exaggerations, so don't take it too seriously.
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theelkspeaks
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Initiate
Purple Bavarois
Jan 17 2015, 12:11 PM
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
Lacking a reasonable tank (other than Naut) for quite a while, which means we couldn't play two tanks, and couldn't play a top lane tank at all. That's the big one in my mind.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
Purple Bavarois
Jan 17 2015, 12:11 PM
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
Lanes that were *really* easy to gank (excluding mid). For much of the arc, Bilge's bot and top lanes were utterly immobile, and the jungle was also very vulnerable. Powerful early junglers such as lee sin and udyr had the potential to decimate the entire team in the early game, because naut won't ever turn a 2v2 or 3v3 against them, and will certainly never win the 1v1. Bilge had a really hard time dealing with mobility too, as many of their champs were quite skillshot reliant (see bot lane). SI in in particular could really have exploited this with the likes of Eve, Elise, Hecarim, or even Nocturne (and definitely Aatrox once they got him)
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CupcakeTrap
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You guys might appreciate some of the data here. The third tab includes current winrates by faction. (Proper BoP on its way.)
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Haha wow, Bandle City needs stronger champions. Maybe a tank that isn't Amumu?
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 19 2015, 10:45 AM
Haha wow, Bandle City needs stronger champions. Maybe a tank that isn't Amumu?
I guarantee you Bandle would do better if they actually used their comp. Instead they play Teemo and lose. Why play Teemo in an AOE death comp when you can play Rumble/Ziggs/Kennen? Hell if I know.
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CupcakeTrap
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I admit I'm REALLY shocked by Bandle City's performance. It's just so much worse than everyone else's. 11%?!

A winrate that low has to be some kind of short joke.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
I see a lot of people talking about the almighty power of AoE comps (this came up for SI and Frel) and I feel people are vastly overestimating their applicability? Like sure, if you manage to catch the enemy team in your AoE of Doom, then that's a guaranteed ace and at least one objective off that. But I think people overrate how rare it is for the enemy team to be conveniently grouped, fully unaware, and unable to react/nullify the AoE comp.

It's really difficult to make the most out of an AoE comp when you have someone with instant waveclear (like Lux) preventing you from pressuring objectives and the rest of the enemy team just split-pushes all game.
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Purple Bavarois
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Restless relentlessly.
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 10:05 AM
Purple Bavarois
Jan 17 2015, 12:11 PM
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
Lanes that were *really* easy to gank (excluding mid). For much of the arc, Bilge's bot and top lanes were utterly immobile, and the jungle was also very vulnerable. Powerful early junglers such as lee sin and udyr had the potential to decimate the entire team in the early game, because naut won't ever turn a 2v2 or 3v3 against them, and will certainly never win the 1v1. Bilge had a really hard time dealing with mobility too, as many of their champs were quite skillshot reliant (see bot lane). SI in in particular could really have exploited this with the likes of Eve, Elise, Hecarim, or even Nocturne (and definitely Aatrox once they got him)
Let's say for argument's sake that I agree. In that case, wouldn't you say those weaknesses were eliminated or at least lessened towards the end of the arc, when you acquired Jax, Renekton, Lulu and Maokai?
Edited by Purple Bavarois, Jan 19 2015, 11:49 AM.
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OrderlyAnarchist
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Tidecallercaller
Purple Bavarois
Jan 19 2015, 11:48 AM
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 10:05 AM
Purple Bavarois
Jan 17 2015, 12:11 PM
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
Lanes that were *really* easy to gank (excluding mid). For much of the arc, Bilge's bot and top lanes were utterly immobile, and the jungle was also very vulnerable. Powerful early junglers such as lee sin and udyr had the potential to decimate the entire team in the early game, because naut won't ever turn a 2v2 or 3v3 against them, and will certainly never win the 1v1. Bilge had a really hard time dealing with mobility too, as many of their champs were quite skillshot reliant (see bot lane). SI in in particular could really have exploited this with the likes of Eve, Elise, Hecarim, or even Nocturne (and definitely Aatrox once they got him)
Let's say for argument's sake that I agree. In that case, wouldn't you say those weaknesses were eliminated or at least lessened towards the end of the arc, when you acquired Jax, Renekton, Lulu and Maokai?
First, I would say that most factions had their weaknesses patched up by the end of the arc. I thought we were discussing the start and mid of the arc. Second, I'd point out that maokai is still immobile as far as escapes are concerned, and that jax and renekton typically use their gap closers aggressively, with relatively long cooldowns, providing very clear windows for effective gank kills. Third, I'd say that Bilgewater never ran Lulu bot because Lulu support is kinda outclassed by every other support that isn't Taric, and remained an easy gank target for the entirety of the arc.
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Wizard996
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Random Silver Scrub
CupcakeTrap
Jan 19 2015, 11:08 AM
I admit I'm REALLY shocked by Bandle City's performance. It's just so much worse than everyone else's. 11%?!

A winrate that low has to be some kind of short joke.
We should totally run a SI vs BC arc (not counting Nefara) just to see how the (current) lowest 2 on the board stack up.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 11:02 AM
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 19 2015, 10:45 AM
Haha wow, Bandle City needs stronger champions. Maybe a tank that isn't Amumu?
I guarantee you Bandle would do better if they actually used their comp. Instead they play Teemo and lose. Why play Teemo in an AOE death comp when you can play Rumble/Ziggs/Kennen? Hell if I know.
Have to agree with this.

However, I'd assume that many BC players just weren't good at those champs. Name one standout Rumble player besides RiotPaddo.

In addition, Kennen feels... weak. Like, really weak. Hard to win lane as him. And Ziggs got nerfed to oblivion.
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Purple Bavarois
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Restless relentlessly.
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 02:09 PM
Purple Bavarois
Jan 19 2015, 11:48 AM
OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 10:05 AM
Purple Bavarois
Jan 17 2015, 12:11 PM
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced this is not more whining, given Bilgewater's record.
But I'm gonna ask you this then.
What would you say was Bilgewater's weakness at any point during the arc?
Lanes that were *really* easy to gank (excluding mid). For much of the arc, Bilge's bot and top lanes were utterly immobile, and the jungle was also very vulnerable. Powerful early junglers such as lee sin and udyr had the potential to decimate the entire team in the early game, because naut won't ever turn a 2v2 or 3v3 against them, and will certainly never win the 1v1. Bilge had a really hard time dealing with mobility too, as many of their champs were quite skillshot reliant (see bot lane). SI in in particular could really have exploited this with the likes of Eve, Elise, Hecarim, or even Nocturne (and definitely Aatrox once they got him)
Let's say for argument's sake that I agree. In that case, wouldn't you say those weaknesses were eliminated or at least lessened towards the end of the arc, when you acquired Jax, Renekton, Lulu and Maokai?
First, I would say that most factions had their weaknesses patched up by the end of the arc. I thought we were discussing the start and mid of the arc. Second, I'd point out that maokai is still immobile as far as escapes are concerned, and that jax and renekton typically use their gap closers aggressively, with relatively long cooldowns, providing very clear windows for effective gank kills. Third, I'd say that Bilgewater never ran Lulu bot because Lulu support is kinda outclassed by every other support that isn't Taric, and remained an easy gank target for the entirety of the arc.
I'm pretty sure you were referring to the end of the arc.

OrderlyAnarchist
 
I'm fine with their intermission roster. But their rosters state at the end of Nyroth was a roster that I refused to play against because games simply weren't fun. If a faction is antifun to play against then we're doing a bad job balancing the factions.


And you had Lulu to use wherever you pleased. Whether you decide to use her or not doesn't matter. She's still on the roster.
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Deleted User
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I personally believe that Jax, at least lore-wise, had no place on any of the teams in Nyroth, and shouldn't have been there. And darkomega's Gangplank was pretty much unstoppable even by plat players.

But honestly, a lot of Bilge's strength came from having Nami as their support, which helped the entire team survive until lategame teamfights (whether they won lane or not) which is where their comp really shined.

It's a similar story there with Ionia, who had even stronger hypercarries and ended up getting Sona to help them survive up until that point.

I honestly think the supports were the greatest strengths of both Ionia and Bilgewater.

The Shadow Isles and Freljord were stuck with an entirely different breed of support - tank supports. While useful, none of them had enough lockdown, or none of them were experienced enough, to make a big enough impact.

To sum it up, I believe the utility supports with heals and peels were the ones that won the arc.


Ask Konata
Jan 13 2015, 04:50 PM
(...)

Well, actually, the real question is, should it ever be fun to play against a champion/comp that is doing well? I don't think the enemy is meant to have fun when getting stomped.

(...)

Yes, yes it should be. That's part of what good game design is all about. Fed champions should still have counterplay. Their failures should make them fall flat; they should have to try. If the winning team has to actually try in order to leverage their lead, and the losing team has options for counterplay, then yes. Any game can be fun, even if you're getting stomped.

Champions/comps that don't live up to this expectation need to be fixed by Riot. And, in the meantime, probably don't have a place in factions.


OrderlyAnarchist
Jan 19 2015, 11:02 AM
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 19 2015, 10:45 AM
Haha wow, Bandle City needs stronger champions. Maybe a tank that isn't Amumu?
I guarantee you Bandle would do better if they actually used their comp. Instead they play Teemo and lose. Why play Teemo in an AOE death comp when you can play Rumble/Ziggs/Kennen? Hell if I know.

Because Teemo is fun in his own special way.

If Bandle needs help, it's probably because of their lack of tanky champions. Braum seems to be the most logical choice for an allied champion pickup. That, or start buying Bandle players Gnar.
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C Drive
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It's weird, but it looks like the factions with less strategic choice for team comps have better overall winrates. The top 3 right now are Bilge, Freljord, and Zaun, all of which have very little room for differing teamcomps, but have a roster that can support the one type of comp really well. The factions with ~50% win rate have at least 2 possible comp choices and rosters that can support both. And the factions with terrible win rates have multiple comp choices, but lack a complete roster to properly support the comp, or have a critical deficiency in their roster. Bandle has only 2 possible junglers, 1 of which is borderline gutter trash if behind at all, the other one gets stolen some of the time or gets used as support because of having only 1 real support, who is arguably borderline gutter trash in the current meta, and probably fairs better in top lane or mid, both of which have only 2 real picks outside of her, top requiring decent skills to last hit on or getting conscripted into jungle (ignoring gnar), mid being somewhat gimped or having a huge skill cliff between being wrecked or wrecking. And fuck Teemo, Teemo is basically a dice roll wherever you put him. Bandle has the tools to succeed, but is short a bolt or two to come together.
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Deleted User
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C Drive
Jan 20 2015, 12:35 PM
It's weird, but it looks like the factions with less strategic choice for team comps have better overall winrates. (...)
It's probably because teams with more rigid team comps are therefore easier to execute. Hard to mess up your team comp when you don't really have any options that might mess it up.
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drmigit2
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Magus
CrazyMLC
Jan 20 2015, 03:17 AM

If Bandle needs help, it's probably because of their lack of tanky champions. Braum seems to be the most logical choice for an allied champion pickup. That, or start buying Bandle players Gnar.


If bandle ever becomes a playable faction again, people might learn that my Gnar is probably better than my Fiddle >.>

Seriously though, Amumu and Gnar are pretty important people on BC. I know both have tentative connections (especially with mumu's new lore), but BC absolutely needs them to be viable. Fact is, Poppy being their only good ad bruiser is inexcusable. Also, without amumu you get heimerdinger or poppy jungle. Poppy jungle is not viable, can we just not pretend that it is? It really is awful. If BC can use Amumu, Gnar, Trist, any of their midlaners, and lulu/braum properly then they have one of the best comps in the game. It's just their roster that is way too big and ehm...kind of dinky.
Edited by drmigit2, Jan 20 2015, 03:51 PM.
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