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Lore Event VI; Come vote!
Topic Started: Jan 9 2015, 07:30 PM (3,127 Views)
drmigit2
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Magus
ChroniclerC
Jan 14 2015, 03:34 PM
Yeah. I'd rather just ~have~ souls that we control than maybe make a friend with some unfathomable horror from beyond who may or may not betray us if we don't constantly appease it.

Also, not entirely okay with the lore implications of "Unfathomable horror from beyond" that isn't Void. That's kind of their whole thing.
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.

Edit: Actually, would it be possible to recruit help in destroying the big scary thing? I mean, it seems to have a soul, why not kill it and then make it our bitch? I doubt the other factions would WANT the creature to stick around. SI still has a fairly large army, and with the combined forces of Bilge and Ionia (doubt Frejlord will want in), we might be able to murderface this thing. After all, if it intends to mess with our souls, maybe we take offense to it?
Edited by drmigit2, Jan 14 2015, 04:28 PM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
ChroniclerC
Jan 14 2015, 03:34 PM
Also, not entirely okay with the lore implications of "Unfathomable horror from beyond" that isn't Void. That's kind of their whole thing.
drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.
Kuronan
Jan 14 2015, 06:56 AM
I just thought: What if this 'Nightmare Beast' is a creature from Nocturne's Dimension?
Until Nocturne is Reworked he technically IS from a Dimension Beyond The Void, albeit one currently under the Institute's control and imprisonment.
drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Edit: Actually, would it be possible to recruit help in destroying the big scary thing? I mean, it seems to have a soul, why not kill it and then make it our bitch? I doubt the other factions would WANT the creature to stick around. SI still has a fairly large army, and with the combined forces of Bilge and Ionia (doubt Frejlord will want in), we might be able to murderface this thing. After all, if it intends to mess with our souls, maybe we take offense to it?
I really doubt this late in the arc anyone from any Faction wants to work with us even if they got that option in the poll. Hell, if I was any other Faction I'd turn to the Void first. Finally, World Systems are stated to have No Impact in the Final Lore Event due to undergoing a Rework.
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 14 2015, 07:15 PM.
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ChroniclerC
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Lemmie rephrase. "Unfathomable Horrors from Beyond" is kind of exactly what the Void is all about doing, and is the only thing the Void is doing. I'm all for other groups getting big scary monsters, but let's leave the Lovecraftian horror to the Void, same way you leave "barbarians from the frigid north" to Freljord, "Mad Science" to Zaun, etc.

Side-note. Personally, my interpretation of Nocturne's lore is that he's some kind of psychic manifestation forced into physical form, not an alien from an unknowable world. Also also, any plane other than Runterra is technically "a dimension beyond the Void", what with the Void being the non-space between worlds. :P Guess that makes Kayle, Taric, and Malphite all From Beyond the Void! (Presented in stunning 3-D.)
Edited by ChroniclerC, Jan 15 2015, 02:51 AM.
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StormRevolver
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I would say that in a sense the void is the "place" between dimensions/worlds, and its insanity comes from its infiniteness. You know like all the complex numbers between real numbers. But if we in a sense "live" in the whole number world, even the rational numbers are "extradimensional" for us, but that doesnt make them into complex numbers.
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ChroniclerC
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drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.
Also part 3, new Baron might actually be Void now, judging by the name of his aura, "Void Corruption". Odd.
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drmigit2
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ChroniclerC
Jan 15 2015, 02:22 PM
drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.
Also part 3, new Baron might actually be Void now, judging by the name of his aura, "Void Corruption". Odd.
Riot's direction on the void weirds me out, man. Are they lovecraftian horrors from beyond? Are they the Zerg? Are they guided by force, intellect, what? Riot seems to have created at least five different possible directions for the void to go and it's really weird. They definitely started out as lovecraftian horrors, but as time goes on, Riot keeps demystifying them by adding people like Kha'zix and Rek'sai, who are frankly just big giant zerg beasties. Vel'koz also escapes the lovecraftian side, imo. He is just too human in his actions, decisions and goals. The void's only lasting identity seems to quickly be that it likes to eat things, and is purple.

Edit: I mean, Kassadin's lore implies that everything in the void is just too terrifying and odd to even be visualized, let alone understood. Looking into the void drives people mad, and Kassadin BARELY escaped it. Kog'maw is accessible, but he has that one quote "Terror coming, daddy coming" which totally kept that whole "THIS GUY can be understood, but watch out for what the void REALLY has" thing going. Then the last three void creatures came out and really, the void is just a zerg adapt, study and consume sort of deal. I dunno, the void was always a thing that Riot needed to avoid exploring, because the more we know about it, the less its identity sticks. The unknowable becomes a lot less unknowable when we get a dossier on it, combined with how it breaks down its classes and species.
Edited by drmigit2, Jan 15 2015, 02:32 PM.
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CupcakeTrap
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drmigit2
Jan 15 2015, 02:28 PM
ChroniclerC
Jan 15 2015, 02:22 PM
drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.
Also part 3, new Baron might actually be Void now, judging by the name of his aura, "Void Corruption". Odd.
Riot's direction on the void weirds me out, man. Are they lovecraftian horrors from beyond? Are they the Zerg? Are they guided by force, intellect, what? Riot seems to have created at least five different possible directions for the void to go and it's really weird. They definitely started out as lovecraftian horrors, but as time goes on, Riot keeps demystifying them by adding people like Kha'zix and Rek'sai, who are frankly just big giant zerg beasties. Vel'koz also escapes the lovecraftian side, imo. He is just too human in his actions, decisions and goals. The void's only lasting identity seems to quickly be that it likes to eat things, and is purple.

Edit: I mean, Kassadin's lore implies that everything in the void is just too terrifying and odd to even be visualized, let alone understood. Looking into the void drives people mad, and Kassadin BARELY escaped it. Kog'maw is accessible, but he has that one quote "Terror coming, daddy coming" which totally kept that whole "THIS GUY can be understood, but watch out for what the void REALLY has" thing going. Then the last three void creatures came out and really, the void is just a zerg adapt, study and consume sort of deal. I dunno, the void was always a thing that Riot needed to avoid exploring, because the more we know about it, the less its identity sticks. The unknowable becomes a lot less unknowable when we get a dossier on it, combined with how it breaks down its classes and species.
I implied in some of the lore at the end of Hextech Revolution that the Void is not the totality of existence beyond the mortal plane, but just the gap between the many dimensions. (Xerath sneered at them as, basically, the bugs living in the cracks of the universal foundation.) Direction-wise, we started off portraying the Void as the Zerg, and I think that was a mistake.

It's hard not to pay homage to Lovecraft when speaking of incomprehensible cosmic horror, but personally I find the references to Lovecraft that Narrative keeps making a bit trite. The Cthulhu Mythos is really its own thing, and I don't think it translates well into League. But the Zerg Rush version of the Void is even worse, in that it's just really dull, and seems to imply some kind of mastermind behind the forces of the Void, which seems very strange.

I think the Void does have some Zerg-ish aspect to it. Perhaps Cho'gath embodies the strength of the Void, and Malzahar has discovered the secret to channeling the Void's energy into the corporeal world through the lens of mortal magic. And sometimes, sure, Cho'gath can grow into an enormous titan and rampage around, and, sure, sometimes Malzahar can direct the Voidling hordes enough to make them behave almost like an army.

But I think the tone I'm going to be aiming for with the Void going forward is more "insidious" or "creepy". The standard Void disaster should start being less "and then a bunch of zerg attack" and more "suddenly a bunch of mages go crazy" or "suddenly this whole region starts mutating into something bizarre and dangerous". As for a political agenda, I don't think most intelligent Void-beings really want to "conquer the world". They're more likely to appear as mysterious forces making deals with Summoners to push forward their dark and often inscrutable schemes. If you buy into the "League as Babylon 5" analogy, then I think they're a bit like the Shadows. I'd rather have them be Shadows than Zerg.

As for the "zerg rush" motif, I honestly think the Isles are a better fit. If anyone's going to field a monstrous army of inhuman abominations, I think it should be the Isles, not the Void. The denizens of the Isles are human enough to have some concept of "conquest". Maybe Discord can be re-explained as the Void lending power to the Isles and creating a bunch of rampaging "mutant undead", sort of like the uncontrollable ones from Daeyux, to join with the more conventional forces led by Thresh and company.

Also, Lore Event VI posted. I'm writing the other factions' decisions now.
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drmigit2
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CupcakeTrap
Jan 19 2015, 09:15 PM
drmigit2
Jan 15 2015, 02:28 PM
ChroniclerC
Jan 15 2015, 02:22 PM
drmigit2
Jan 14 2015, 04:25 PM
Technically Vilemaw and Baron Nashor both fit into that category. I don't think the Void has total dominion of all things incomprehensibly weird and scary.
Also part 3, new Baron might actually be Void now, judging by the name of his aura, "Void Corruption". Odd.
Riot's direction on the void weirds me out, man. Are they lovecraftian horrors from beyond? Are they the Zerg? Are they guided by force, intellect, what? Riot seems to have created at least five different possible directions for the void to go and it's really weird. They definitely started out as lovecraftian horrors, but as time goes on, Riot keeps demystifying them by adding people like Kha'zix and Rek'sai, who are frankly just big giant zerg beasties. Vel'koz also escapes the lovecraftian side, imo. He is just too human in his actions, decisions and goals. The void's only lasting identity seems to quickly be that it likes to eat things, and is purple.

Edit: I mean, Kassadin's lore implies that everything in the void is just too terrifying and odd to even be visualized, let alone understood. Looking into the void drives people mad, and Kassadin BARELY escaped it. Kog'maw is accessible, but he has that one quote "Terror coming, daddy coming" which totally kept that whole "THIS GUY can be understood, but watch out for what the void REALLY has" thing going. Then the last three void creatures came out and really, the void is just a zerg adapt, study and consume sort of deal. I dunno, the void was always a thing that Riot needed to avoid exploring, because the more we know about it, the less its identity sticks. The unknowable becomes a lot less unknowable when we get a dossier on it, combined with how it breaks down its classes and species.
I implied in some of the lore at the end of Hextech Revolution that the Void is not the totality of existence beyond the mortal plane, but just the gap between the many dimensions. (Xerath sneered at them as, basically, the bugs living in the cracks of the universal foundation.) Direction-wise, we started off portraying the Void as the Zerg, and I think that was a mistake.

It's hard not to pay homage to Lovecraft when speaking of incomprehensible cosmic horror, but personally I find the references to Lovecraft that Narrative keeps making a bit trite. The Cthulhu Mythos is really its own thing, and I don't think it translates well into League. But the Zerg Rush version of the Void is even worse, in that it's just really dull, and seems to imply some kind of mastermind behind the forces of the Void, which seems very strange.

I think the Void does have some Zerg-ish aspect to it. Perhaps Cho'gath embodies the strength of the Void, and Malzahar has discovered the secret to channeling the Void's energy into the corporeal world through the lens of mortal magic. And sometimes, sure, Cho'gath can grow into an enormous titan and rampage around, and, sure, sometimes Malzahar can direct the Voidling hordes enough to make them behave almost like an army.

But I think the tone I'm going to be aiming for with the Void going forward is more "insidious" or "creepy". The standard Void disaster should start being less "and then a bunch of zerg attack" and more "suddenly a bunch of mages go crazy" or "suddenly this whole region starts mutating into something bizarre and dangerous". As for a political agenda, I don't think most intelligent Void-beings really want to "conquer the world". They're more likely to appear as mysterious forces making deals with Summoners to push forward their dark and often inscrutable schemes. If you buy into the "League as Babylon 5" analogy, then I think they're a bit like the Shadows. I'd rather have them be Shadows than Zerg.

As for the "zerg rush" motif, I honestly think the Isles are a better fit. If anyone's going to field a monstrous army of inhuman abominations, I think it should be the Isles, not the Void. The denizens of the Isles are human enough to have some concept of "conquest". Maybe Discord can be re-explained as the Void lending power to the Isles and creating a bunch of rampaging "mutant undead", sort of like the uncontrollable ones from Daeyux, to join with the more conventional forces led by Thresh and company.

Also, Lore Event VI posted. I'm writing the other factions' decisions now.
I think the biggest problem that the Void has right now, is Malzahar himself being considered its "leader". Sure he is a prophet, but that's literally all he is. Malzahar at his most effective would give vague warnings as to when the Void may come, or what it may do. I think it's crazy to think that the Void doesn't want to take over Runeterra though. "Bow to the Void, or be consumed by it" is one of the most important phrases Malzahar ever utters. Koggy himself says "Obey void", and he is a baby! We don't know when the Void will come, and have seen only but mere glimpses of what horror it could truly offer, but for our sake let's hope that the void never is able to come in force.

At least, that's how I would like the Void to be portrayed. Zaun's research into the void needs to backfire. Touching the void is a mistake, one that could lead into pure madness and devastation. I really like Discord though, the void making a show of force saying "Noxus was your strongest, and we shall show you what that amounts to", and then the world coming together to show that the Void isn't capable of invading yet is in my opinion, a great story. You COULD change it to the Shadow Isles, but with their ever increasing ties to Noxus, and Karthus' movements toward peace I don't know if that's the correct decision. The next Voidpocalypse shouldn't be "and then a crap-ton of voidlings appears". I think I agree with you on the mages going insane idea, or perhaps they all get cursed with a plague? Maybe that plague is contagious and maybe within days those who were infected begin mutilating themselves and everyone around them? Only once the devastation ends, does Kog'maw, Cho'gath and the rest of their hoards come to feast on the remains of what was once several proud armies. Perhaps their souls are taken too. For what? Only time would tell. Invoking the void should be like invoking pure madness against your enemies. Perhaps that option should be available? Massive gains could be made by serving the Void's interests for a time. But at what cost? Maybe Malzahar offers such power to Azir? Perhaps he would have no qualms with unleashing horror and madness upon those who would stand against Shurima. Maybe Malzahar takes advantage of a desperate J4? Lots of possibilities exist, and I think exploring the Void as a faction could be worthwhile.
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ChroniclerC
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Submit to the Void
From personal experience, if you want to write the Void in a more Lovecraftian style (as opposed to a Starcraftian style), I have three major tips.

Don't show, don't tell. Be very elusive when describing what Void shenanigans look like. Somewhat akin to not showing the monster in a horror movie, whatever monstrosity the reader can think of is, I promise, more effective than what you were planning to write. And, for the love of the gods, don't use the word "tentacle". It's horribly cliche by this point. We all know what to think of when you say "tentacle", which defeats the entire purpose of the exercise. (I much prefer "tendril", for the record.) In Lovecraft's day, the ocean and its inhabitants bore all manner of unknown, but not so much for the present. If you must describe things, instead look instead to insects, fungi, and microbiology (particularly infectious disease) for off-putting inspiration.

They don't think like us. You've got this idea down, but it bears repeating. They are not motivated by the same things we mere mortals are. And yet, they seem to understand us very well. A favorite ploy of mine is to offer deals that seem very one-sided in the mortal's favor, then make a big show of the horror gloating over his unfathomable gains.

Strength of arms can not stop them. This is not some mere army to rout, not some simple monster to slay, not something that can even fathom death. It is the unending abyss. The devouring nothingness. The Infinite Void. Swords can not cut it, spears can not pierce it, flames can not burn it. Before its withering gaze, your shield shall shatter, your armor shall crumble, your faith shall falter. It came to your world by the weakness of mortals, and it does not intend to leave. aLL SHaLL sUBmiT To tHe VOid

*cough* *blink blink* I'm sorry, what was I saying?
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drmigit2
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Magus
What Cronicler and I seem to be getting at here, is that while the raw power of the void seems to be represented well, the psychological aspect needs further delving into. The Void likes to play mind games with its victims, and will often drive people into madness if they try to combat it. The Void isn't JUST a zergy zone of infinite crabs. It also has magic beyond our understanding and uses it to cause unspeakable horror in ways that are actually quite subtle...typically. In fact, why not let the Void take advantage of Runeterra's current lack of fear. They don't see the Void as a threat? Good. It will make the next few moves all the easier to make. Malefic visions and psychological undermining could become the next big thing. Speaking of, I think the void should have a higher infiltration skill than it currently has. Industry is...unimportant for the Void. Why make more voidlings when we have infinite voidlings? Malefic visions on a political leader seems appropriately Voidy. Psychological undermining could be the next big thing for the Void.
Edited by drmigit2, Jan 20 2015, 01:18 AM.
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StormRevolver
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i think instead of lovecraftian the void is pretty much a warp clone from warhammer, lovecraftian themes require 'gods' with higher intellect, who just play around with mortals, and basicaly their very existence drives people mad (that kinda means that by now every zaunite researcher who ever tried to work on the extradimensional theory is just a raving lunatic. Its impossible to do research into lovecraftian things, because just trying it would mean insanity), but most creatures of the void are more like lets materalize somehow and destroy stuff because we represent that psychological aspect and this is a lot more like the demons from warhammer. The problem is that right now we show them as a very unified and single purposed entity, when there should be who knows how much "demons" with different agendas and methods of taking a foothold in valoran, and even they would constantly battle against each other. Maybe its time to add some extra npcs that would try to take over malzahars little foothold on icathia? :) The problem i think with lovecraftian style would be that it means that you simply have no way of winning. Thats the type of horror it brings, and the only way to avoid that is to just simply never even hear about them, or do anything about them. The void doesnt realy operate like that i think.
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 20 2015, 03:41 AM.
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StormRevolver
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bah
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 20 2015, 03:36 AM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
The problems I have with all these 'YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE VOID, DRIVE THE ZAUNITES INSANE NEXT ARC!' ideas is A) they are Biased as Fuck B) Zaun isn't the only one that messed with the Pyrikhos last arc (Sure they were the most avid with it but they weren't the only ones who did it) C) All this will seem to actually do is negate gains made in the arc (Really?) and D) We have a much more prime target (Remember Demacia's giant stash of Pyrikhos they refused to share? Yea, that's just sitting there, a bunch of gathered up energy from another dimension being left to waste isn't exactly healthy for the barrier between Us and the Void)

Also, Kuronan is totally siding with Aklathos. He discovered it, and it offered him Dark Powers beyond Comprehension, corrupting his mind and making him think 'Well, maybe this thing can offer me the powers of Darkness I have so long sought?' I'd like to change all my titles to Herald of Aklathos if we summon him.
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 20 2015, 10:24 AM.
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Zondervain
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Kuronan
Jan 20 2015, 10:19 AM
He discovered it
What?
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StormRevolver
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Kuronan
Jan 20 2015, 10:19 AM
The problems I have with all these 'YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE VOID, DRIVE THE ZAUNITES INSANE NEXT ARC!' ideas is A) they are Biased as Fuck B) Zaun isn't the only one that messed with the Pyrikhos last arc (Sure they were the most avid with it but they weren't the only ones who did it) C) All this will seem to actually do is negate gains made in the arc (Really?) and D) We have a much more prime target (Remember Demacia's giant stash of Pyrikhos they refused to share? Yea, that's just sitting there, a bunch of gathered up energy from another dimension being left to waste isn't exactly healthy for the barrier between Us and the Void)

Also, Kuronan is totally siding with Aklathos. He discovered it, and it offered him Dark Powers beyond Comprehension, corrupting his mind and making him think 'Well, maybe this thing can offer me the powers of Darkness I have so long sought?' I'd like to change all my titles to Herald of Aklathos if we summon him.
as i said this is why i dont like the lovecraftian approach, but somehow this is all you focus on.
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StormRevolver
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Zondervain
Jan 20 2015, 10:44 AM
Kuronan
Jan 20 2015, 10:19 AM
He discovered it
What?
i think he dropped the idea into the forum.
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drmigit2
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Kuronan
Jan 20 2015, 10:19 AM
The problems I have with all these 'YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE VOID, DRIVE THE ZAUNITES INSANE NEXT ARC!' ideas is A) they are Biased as Fuck B) Zaun isn't the only one that messed with the Pyrikhos last arc (Sure they were the most avid with it but they weren't the only ones who did it) C) All this will seem to actually do is negate gains made in the arc (Really?) and D) We have a much more prime target (Remember Demacia's giant stash of Pyrikhos they refused to share? Yea, that's just sitting there, a bunch of gathered up energy from another dimension being left to waste isn't exactly healthy for the barrier between Us and the Void)

Also, Kuronan is totally siding with Aklathos. He discovered it, and it offered him Dark Powers beyond Comprehension, corrupting his mind and making him think 'Well, maybe this thing can offer me the powers of Darkness I have so long sought?' I'd like to change all my titles to Herald of Aklathos if we summon him.
Since you made a crap ton of statements at once, I will answer them one by one.

A): Nobody else is currently researching void magics. Not even the Shadow Isles. If there are dire consequences to them, Zaun basically gets to bear the grunt of the issues. They went with the Void energy project and basically decided to throw their lot with the Void right up until the voidpocalype hit, and even then they still went ahead and kept their gains from the Void. Zaun has hopped on the super dangerous research, and if the Void ever decides to start messing with people, Zaun's probably going to be first on that list. No bias, simple fact.

B): BC used it as fuel for a rocket ship, Piltover and BC used it to make some explosives. Beyond its explosive capabilities, it really wasn't researched too much by any other faction. Once again, Zaun is left alone on this issue.

C): You mean aside from their incredible unstoppable army, insane research rate, alliance with Xerath and bitch-slapping of Demacia? Making some Zaunite mages go insane and giving Zaun an actual obstacle seems to be fairly appropriate given the circumstances.

D): Demacia is probably monitoring the crap out of the stuff, if it causes any problems I doubt they would have any issues with nullifying their pyrikhos.

I know you really REALLY like Zaun Kuro, but if we want to take the void in a new and better direction, Zaun might end up taking a bit of a hit from it. Fact is, they have the most to lose if the Void starts messing with people beyond zerg rushes, so if the void starts to do that then Zaun will probably have to get over that fact. I doubt it will cause them to lose superpower status, or even knock them out of first place.
Edited by drmigit2, Jan 20 2015, 11:07 AM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
StormRevolver
Jan 20 2015, 10:56 AM
Zondervain
Jan 20 2015, 10:44 AM
Kuronan
Jan 20 2015, 10:19 AM
He discovered it
What?
i think he dropped the idea into the forum.
I dropped the idea of some Extradimensional Entity onto the discussion for Lore Event VI and CupcakeTrap liked it and make it Aklathos, then saying I was the one who discovered there was something wrong with the Thaumic Matrix in the summary (which I hope makes it through to the actual event ^.^)
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 20 2015, 12:01 PM.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

Wow, I have been so distracted with RL that I never saw this thread till now. It feels like I missed the entire discussion.
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CupcakeTrap
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drmigit2
Jan 20 2015, 01:18 AM
The Void isn't JUST a zergy zone of infinite crabs.
"a zergy zone of infinite crabs" is now my go-to phrase for what the Void shouldn't be.
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