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Shurima vs. Zaun: Y/N?
Topic Started: Jan 27 2015, 09:09 PM (2,658 Views)
CupcakeTrap
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Ask Konata
Jan 28 2015, 05:50 PM
We are having more than just Shurima and Zaun as a choice for the next arc, right? At least one other option.
As always, it will be a public poll with all options available. There are variants on this model, though. For example, for Nyroth, we started by having staff select one faction (Bilgewater), and then opened it up to general voting for the next two, and then let Zaun vote in a fourth.

Perhaps the most popular current idea for the next arc is Shurima seeking recognition as a member-state of the League. If we went that route, we'd probably have Shurima as the staff-appointed faction.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Jan 28 2015, 07:52 PM.
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If the problem is that you want to try the new Shuriman roster, but don't want to abandon Zaun, then that's understandable. But the thing is, that problem exists in some fashion no matter what faction you pit Shurima against. It isn't a problem exclusive to Zaunites, and the fact remains that, at least from some points of view, creating such a conflict of interest could be considered a good thing. At the very least it will split up the more experienced members of the community, creating more balanced summoner pools for both factions.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CrazyMLC
Jan 28 2015, 10:54 PM
If the problem is that you want to try the new Shuriman roster, but don't want to abandon Zaun, then that's understandable. But the thing is, that problem exists in some fashion no matter what faction you pit Shurima against. It isn't a problem exclusive to Zaunites, and the fact remains that, at least from some points of view, creating such a conflict of interest could be considered a good thing. At the very least it will split up the more experienced members of the community, creating more balanced summoner pools for both factions.
What the problem is, is the entire poll, right here, is exactly saying 'THERE CAN BE NO PEACE BETWEEN ZAUN AND SHURIMA, THERE MUST BE WAR!' With most other factions, this doesn't always imply a grudge or even at times, it's only because the League is making two factions work against each other (Ionia doesn't exactly hate Demacia, Piltover, Bandle and Demacia established VERY early on 'Hey, look, I know we have somewhat opposing goals, but we're all still cool.') You are directly imposing on a yet unestablished faction a grudge. Sure, Azir and Nasus obviously hate Xerath and Renekton, and yea, Zaun holds some territory, all this shit happened BEFORE Azir's Ascension, did it not? Issues like this can be worked out.

What you want is to say 'Nope, Humanity is flawed, we cannot settle differences peacefully by any means. Either work with the New Faction, or stand with the one you know and love.' and Factions has two purposes: Those are Custom Lore, and trying out Limited Rosters, and I feel like the Latter is closer to what we are aiming for at times because it's fun to limit ourselves, and it's fun to experiment in a way that focuses on the subtle identity of a Faction's Champions (Ionia with High Mobility and Hypercarries, Noxus with Early-Game Dominance, Zaunite Tank Town, etc.)

I don't play League anymore, so my feet are firmly in Zaunite Boots. I've said time and time again I am here to offer my input, mostly in Lore but I have roleplayed a bit and interacted with the community. I feel like it would be wrong for Shurima and Zaun to not have any chance to work this out early. Remember how at the beginning of the Hextech Revolution, Demacia was promoted to be 'BURN THE PYRIKHOS AND PURGE THE HERESY!' but then moderated their stance to 'Okay, you can mess around with it as long as you take precautions-something Zaun isn't doing.' I feel like Shurima and Zaun should be given a chance to sort out their differences early, perhaps Zaun agrees to surrender it's lesser holdings and compensates Azir for it. I don't think it's reasonable however, when you establish-even before we start discussing the lore-that there is a Literal Zero chance of Negotiation.
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 02:29 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
I am personally 100% in favour of Shurima having absolutely no chance whatsoever of brokering any sort of peace or deal with Zaun, simply because I only started this arc and I am already tired of Zaun and Demacia being the fan favourites. I look forward to the inevitable Zaun/Shurima conflict, and hopefully Zaun gets kicked out of Shurima, gets cut down to size and stops being the Factions equivalent of the "dark Mary Sue".
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 02:23 AM
stops being the Factions equivalent of the "dark Mary Sue".
Looks at Frejlord working with Lissandra and fucking up their Rune Magic roll. Looks at Demacian Decision to flood Noxian Fleets that may have held Refugees with the Soldiers. Looks at Void and Shadow Isles actions during the Discord Arc, then looks at Zaun. YEA, TRY SAYING THAT AGAIN... I think you forgot about the part where Zaun never took the Full Void Path, or where we were the first to volunteer to help Bandle City with THE VOID LICH THEY SUMMONED!
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 02:36 AM.
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I don't see why there couldn't be peace. It doesn't have to be straight up war - the arc's conflict could potentially be resolved by a peace treaty of some sort, but there are some serious complications.


  • Azir claims the land Zaun owns to be his sovereign territory.
  • Zaun does not want to give up its deposits in Shurima.
  • Shurima is a weak nation with little political sway or military - Zaun does not have to listen to any of its demands if it doesn't want to. There is no reason for Zaun to take Shurima seriously.
  • Even if Zaun did give up the land around the deposits, there are foreign powers that would love to take advantage of Zaun's weakened security in those regions if it were forced to give up much of its territory.
  • Zaun is not a faction known for its humanitarian pursuits, or willingness to do the "right" thing.
  • Zaun is harboring what could be considered Shuriman fugitives, Renekton and Xer'ath.
  • Azir would probably want all of his land back, as well as Renekton and Xer'ath.


In my mind, the only reason Zaun would even consider giving in to the pitiful Shurima's demands out of the gate is if the support for Azir from the league was just so cripplingly powerful. (unlikely because of a lack of political presence)

But it's still possible for a treaty to be made, I just doubt Zaun would see it that way, at least at first.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 02:32 AM
Looks at Frejlord working with Lissandra and fucking up their Rune Magic roll. Looks at Demacian Decision to flood Noxian Fleets that may have held Refugees with the Soldiers. Looks at Void and Shadow Isles actions during the Discord Arc, then looks at Zaun. YEA, TRY SAYING THAT AGAIN... I think you forgot about the part where Zaun never took the Full Void Path, or where we were the first to volunteer to help Bandle City with THE VOID LICH THEY SUMMONED!
Freljord: Got condemned before the League, and got 2 bans against us that severely screwed us over. We also FAILED that roll and opened a void portal that pretty much rendered the island uninhabitable to the point where the events overwrote the island's original nexus resonance. That's not how Mary Sues work.

Not gonna comment on Demacia, because that's the other Mary Sue.

Void/Discord won that arc, but have been doing nothing at all ever since, and nobody actually takes them seriously as a threat because it's been proven time and again that the Void/Discord will be beaten back no matter how great of an advantage they get.

The reason Zaun is firmly within Mary Sue territory is because they have ridiculously high stats in everything (no seriously, everything. Name a world stat, they're either at the top of the list or nearly so) and everything negative that happens to them is either a blessing in disguise or a temporary setback. I said "dark" because the standard Mary Sue is a force that believes itself to be good and warps the narrative around them to impose their own moral beliefs of how things should be (that's Demacia). A Dark Sue is not the same as a Villain Sue.
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Kaynunot
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Reads through the bulletin list CrazyMLC was reading through... Also reads through everything else... Error 404: Counterargument not found. Okay, now that you listed it out and specifically said a Treaty WAS possible, I see no further issue. Carry on!
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 02:51 AM
The reason Zaun is firmly within Mary Sue territory is because they have ridiculously high stats in everything (no seriously, everything. Name a world stat, they're either at the top of the list or nearly so) and everything negative that happens to them is either a blessing in disguise or a temporary setback. I said "dark" because the standard Mary Sue is a force that believes itself to be good and warps the narrative around them to impose their own moral beliefs of how things should be (that's Demacia). A Dark Sue is not the same as a Villain Sue.

  • World Systems are being reworked during the Intermission.
  • The staff knows Zaun's super-high stats are a problem. I'm not a part of that team but I'm reasonably sure they are getting dialed back...
  • The Zaunite Viewpoint is not inherently problematic in the same sense the Demacian Viewpoint is. Warping the Viewpoint does tend to happen when someone is also Piloting the arc (Are you trying to suggest Bilgewater didn't get the same treatment this arc, or Ionia didn't during Shon-Xan?)
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ShadowKnight1224
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Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 02:58 AM

  • World Systems are being reworked during the Intermission.
  • The staff knows Zaun's super-high stats are a problem. I'm not a part of that team but I'm reasonably sure they are getting dialed back...
  • The Zaunite Viewpoint is not inherently problematic in the same sense the Demacian Viewpoint is. Warping the Viewpoint does tend to happen when someone is also Piloting the arc (Are you trying to suggest Bilgewater didn't get the same treatment this arc, or Ionia didn't during Shon-Xan?)
Narrative-wise, Demacia and Zaun are still ridiculously important, even without the world stats. Demacia got a literal goddess, in a land with practically no religion to speak of, much less one with an actual personification of divinity. Zaun got the vast majority of a hextech mcguffin, a bunch of land in Shurima, a warpgate, a bunch of special military/espionage corps, etc.

Let's look at the other factions and see what they got:

Freljord: Mirrorwater. It was never brought up ever again and has affected absolutely nothing about the faction or its influence in the world.
Piltover: A bit of hextech miscellanea. Pretty much no changes from what it used to be.
Bandle City: They got so massively screwed over that their best hope at getting good things seems to be not participating in arcs. Their moon base is likely to be completely irrelevant except as an excuse to bring up plot points (like the Nyroth arc).
Noxus: Devastation and a pyrrhic victory over Ionia that doesn't actually amount to anything. Plus internal strife.
Ionia: A pyrrhic victory over Noxus, and I guarantee that whatever they get from Nyroth will be either inconsequential or forgotten.
Bilgewater: For what we're seeing thus far, they seem to be getting a lot of faction-changing things, from agriculture to ambassador status of Nyroth, but time will tell if they will become another Zaun or if their achievements will be forgotten like Piltover and Freljord's.
Shadow Isles: They got pretty much nothing, they failed at everything and given that their closest ally is the Void, there's not much hope of SI ever becoming relevant.
Void/Discord: They got a foothold on Valoran, which they didn't really need because of their ability to just show up anywhere whenever the narrative wants them to, and their track record thus far is "beaten back every time".

The only possible Mary Sue to come out of this arc is Bilge, but they may well end up as a forgotten faction when the next arc blows over.
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 03:10 AM
Narrative-wise, Demacia and Zaun are still ridiculously important, even without the world stats. Demacia got a literal goddess, in a land with practically no religion to speak of, much less one with an actual personification of divinity. Zaun got the vast majority of a hextech mcguffin, a bunch of land in Shurima, a warpgate, a bunch of special military/espionage corps, etc.

Let's look at the other factions and see what they got:

Freljord: Mirrorwater. It was never brought up ever again and has affected absolutely nothing about the faction or its influence in the world.
Piltover: A bit of hextech miscellanea. Pretty much no changes from what it used to be.
Bandle City: They got so massively screwed over that their best hope at getting good things seems to be not participating in arcs. Their moon base is likely to be completely irrelevant except as an excuse to bring up plot points (like the Nyroth arc).
Noxus: Devastation and a pyrrhic victory over Ionia that doesn't actually amount to anything. Plus internal strife.
Ionia: A pyrrhic victory over Noxus, and I guarantee that whatever they get from Nyroth will be either inconsequential or forgotten.
Bilgewater: For what we're seeing thus far, they seem to be getting a lot of faction-changing things, from agriculture to ambassador status of Nyroth, but time will tell if they will become another Zaun or if their achievements will be forgotten like Piltover and Freljord's.
Shadow Isles: They got pretty much nothing, they failed at everything and given that their closest ally is the Void, there's not much hope of SI ever becoming relevant.
Void/Discord: They got a foothold on Valoran, which they didn't really need because of their ability to just show up anywhere whenever the narrative wants them to, and their track record thus far is "beaten back every time".

The only possible Mary Sue to come out of this arc is Bilge, but they may well end up as a forgotten faction when the next arc blows over.
Well yea, Zaun became important the way Machinery became important to run any sort of Franchise during The Industrial Revolution. I'm not bringing up Ceruleana because I'm not a fan of her either, that's really CupcakeTrap's Can Of Worms. And I'm not going to try to say Zaun wasn't the favorite of the staff during the Hextech Revolution (because they were) but the Zaunite Community also pitched in a lot of it's own ideas (TekFortress, one of the possible research ideas, was actually my idea in the form of Hyper-Kinetic Defense Structures. We made a like, 11 page spreadsheet on possible research ideas for literally every Champion that wasn't currently taken by another faction at the time. We made a treaty with Bandle to help them before Piltover and Demacia even got asked 'Would you like to help them?' AND WE WENT BACK AND RENEGOTIATED THE TREATY AFTERWARDS INSTEAD OF TRYING TO BIND THEM TO IT!) We put a LOT of effort into everything we did, so it's only fair we get some cool toys because we were Passionate and Avid about what Zaun could become.

I wasn't a part of Piltover, Bandle City or Demacia but here's how I am starting to feel it was from a Research Perspective:
Demacia: "Give us Light Options!"
Piltover and Bandle: "Give us something relevant!"
Zaun: Someone from Zaun approached CupcakeTrap with a clearly overstuffed Envelope. "Here's ideas Zaun has for research, take a look!" As CupcakeTrap opened the letter, the contents exploded upwards. Soon the area was covered in papers 'suggesting' potential ideas.

Other Factions:

Frejlord: Mirrorwater was used to give buffs to the Winter's Claw units and gave the Avarosan a Defensive Bonus (which they have yet to actually utilize...)
Piltover: Actually they got a shit ton more than you give them credit for. There's the treaty with Ionia, the Velotronic Rail (can't remember the exact name) to Demacia and Bandle City (overshadowed by Warpgates, but still) buffs to units through the People Of Tomorrow Project, an Airship Armada (that will likely be overshadowed when Zaun gets a Space Fleet) Armor that increases their Military Capabilities (changes the normal casualty roll system) and Explosives that actually Increase their Offensive Capabilities.
Bandle City: Well let's be honest, opening the Tomb to Nefara wasn't their best idea, blowing up Zaun was a shitty idea, and fighting Zaun in the Shurima during the arc their military got annihilated by Nefara? Bandle City Summoners had Rabies essentially. Still, they completed the Mothership, got the Moonbase, found the Atlanteans, and learned more about Cosmic Balance (which actually saved them from Bad Danger Rolls... Twice) and Explosives like Piltover's.
Ionia: They repelled the Noxian War Machine (albeit under a war with questionable ethics to begin with, sucks to be a Noxian Refugee) then later forgave their enemies and they brought back the Kinkou (essentially bringing them up to the highest Espionage Stat in Factions)
Bilgewater: They saved the Marai and brought back Diana's Order, The Lunari, on top of being The Heroes of Nyroth the whole fucking arc (They have never lost at anything, you wanna call someone a Mary Sue? Look at Bilgewater's record)
Shadow Isles: Yep, blame the Staff for making our only useful stats Military and Industry which essentially leaves us with one option: KILL EVERYTHING!
Void: People are starting to realize Void's too... Zergish, and CupcakeTrap has apparently become amendable to change from 'Lots and lots of Infinite Zerg Armies!' to 'Mysterious and Unfathomable Horrors' they are actually supposed to be.
Noxus: Noxus got fucked hard... Like, I can't think of a single Victory they had besides ending the Shon-Xan Dispute on their terms (and even that's questionable)
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 04:40 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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You're missing the point. The point is not that Zaun didn't deserve anything, my point is that they got an extraordinary amount of goods that overshadowed every single other faction with the exception of Demacia and possibly now Bilgewater.

Freljord's Mirrorwater bonuses are irrelevant and you know it, as are Ionia's. If I can't bring up Zaun's ridiculous Espionage stat thanks to the PsiKorps, you can't bring up Ionia's Espionage thanks to the Kinkou. Piltover got a bunch of hextech, yes, but did it actually change anything about the faction? Zaun got a massive military that shored up its only previous weakness, and then amplified its current strengths. Piltover got a few minor bonuses here and there (again, you don't get to bring up the world systems minutiae if I can't do the same with Zaun), but nothing world-changing like Zaun post-Hextech Revolution or Demacia post-Ceruleana (or Bilge post-Nyroth).

Also, just because a faction has the most involved players and staff favouritism, it shouldn't get massive world-changing benefits. You keep justifying Zaun's benefits from a "well we were very passionate and involved" perspective, and you don't realise how harmful that is. It means that arc results are going to be easily predicted judging from how many Summoners join which faction, and who those Summoners are.

I definitely agree that Bilge was the Mary Sue of this arc, but it's entirely possible that with the next few arcs, when people's attentions move to other factions, Bilge will be forgotten again. I wouldn't say how likely that is to happen, but it's certainly possible.

Zaun, on the other hand, will never ever be forgotten ever. You can't go a week in this place without someone bringing it up.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Jan 29 2015, 04:44 AM.
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 04:43 AM
You're missing the point. The point is not that Zaun didn't deserve anything, my point is that they got an extraordinary amount of goods that overshadowed every single other faction with the exception of Demacia and possibly now Bilgewater.

Freljord's Mirrorwater bonuses are irrelevant and you know it, as are Ionia's. If I can't bring up Zaun's ridiculous Espionage stat thanks to the PsiKorps, you can't bring up Ionia's Espionage thanks to the Kinkou. Piltover got a bunch of hextech, yes, but did it actually change anything about the faction? Zaun got a massive military that shored up its only previous weakness, and then amplified its current strengths. Piltover got a few minor bonuses here and there (again, you don't get to bring up the world systems minutiae if I can't do the same with Zaun), but nothing world-changing like Zaun post-Hextech Revolution or Demacia post-Ceruleana (or Bilge post-Nyroth).

Also, just because a faction has the most involved players and staff favouritism, it shouldn't get massive world-changing benefits. You keep justifying Zaun's benefits from a "well we were very passionate and involved" perspective, and you don't realise how harmful that is. It means that arc results are going to be easily predicted judging from how many Summoners join which faction, and who those Summoners are.

I definitely agree that Bilge was the Mary Sue of this arc, but it's entirely possible that with the next few arcs, when people's attentions move to other factions, Bilge will be forgotten again. I wouldn't say how likely that is to happen, but it's certainly possible.

Zaun, on the other hand, will never ever be forgotten ever. You can't go a week in this place without someone bringing it up.
Mirrorwater's Bonuses got proven at Krocylea actually (If the Boar riders didn't roll a Critical Success, Shadow Isles might have actually managed to kill Ionia and Frejlord) Espionage needs to be reworked (as do all World Systems honestly) to make Espionage relevant (right now Counter-Espionage is overpowered and makes it difficult to take risks, particularly with Factions like Demacia who don't have any Secrets worth noting) and The Hextech Revolution was a very... RNG-Reliant System that probably wasn't expected to go where it did. Bilgewater and Shadow Isles both proved the Balance Of Power is an extreme issue in this system and I'm hoping the impact gets Nerfed (Hey, remember the first Research Week? Shadow Isles didn't get SHIT done because of our Balance of Power. While ultimately in our benefit, it still goes to show when we needed to spend our rewards on Research just to get something out of the entire arc while Bilgewater is cruising on their... Third, Fourth Project?) As much as I'm going to say I don't WANT to see Zaun nerfed for the Rework, it is something that definitely needs to be addressed. (Cupcake told me he's not going to turn Bilgewater into Zaun 2.0 with their Military. Out of the... What, 120 Military they have, they'd have kept 30-45 under the Old System.)

The Faction piloting the Arc has always had favoritism. Go look up the narrative for Shon-Xan, it was clearly in Ionia's court, arguing internally about the ethics of the war, and Noxus is just kind of Cussing they are losing. Hextech Revolution was clearly being the Narrative Focalpoint because Zaun was Center-Stage of the Arc. Either it was Zaunites reveling in their victories or the other factions being angry that Zaun's doing so well in both pick-ups and Featured Matches after we adjusted to the roster. It is harmful but are you trying to tell the Staff that they should mostly if not completely ignore the faction that's legitimately controlling the direction of the Narrative? It's kind of hard to do that, if you didn't realize...

I do think Bilgewater will honestly be forgotten. A lot of the Bilgewatians I did speak with during the arc were more 'Proud Zaunites helping people we can sympathize with' than 'Proud Bilgewatians who want to be involved with the Dispute and become a Respected Force' And no, Zaun won't be forgotten, because a lot of Zaunites (like myself) wear their colors proudly. I like the idea that their research-though not always ethical-can be pursued without much government oversight, that a nation can be free to progress and develop not by the will of Tradition or False Semblance of Honor, but by what we can learn, discover, create, and innovate. I like Zaun because I believe in what it could be, and you do have a right to disagree with me on that.
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ShadowKnight1224
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I question the validity of the Mirrorwater bonus when the roll was a critical success and would have likely succeeded with or without the bonus, but that's nitpicking. I'm pretty sure you can agree that a single bonus in a single roll is not the same as a host of faction-changing benefits. They are like comparing a single cherry to a silo full of apples.

That said, the key issue seems to be that there isn't much accountability when it comes to overall trends. There's plenty of accountability regarding rolls, matches, the BoP, battles and other systems with numbers, but not when it comes to intangible things like Research projects, rewards and favouritism.

It sounds like the kind of thing we should be working on before the next arc comes.

Also, as an actual RL scientist, Zaun's depiction of science is pretty much the unfair stereotype I have to face every day and it grates on me like sandpaper to hear people actually defending it.
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 05:47 AM
It sounds like the kind of thing we should be working on before the next arc comes.

Also, as an actual RL scientist, Zaun's depiction of science is pretty much the unfair stereotype I have to face every day and it grates on me like sandpaper to hear people actually defending it.
Considering we are discussing this in a topic literally asking 'What do we want to be playing as next arc?' I imagine it'd kind of late to discuss accountability on intangible benefits like Research and Narrative.

And I'm sorry to grind your gears but I'm not intelligent enough to work in any Field Of Study, though I do admire the Pursuit Of Knowledge. So you'll have to forgive me for being ignorant of how science may work for you and/or any stereotypes existing.
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It's never too late to be discussing the power of certain systems, and that's especially true now that revisions/entire new systems are being drafted for the next arc. The feedback is needed now more than ever to allow revision and careful examination to take place.


And I'd like to point out that it isn't so much intelligence that is the limiting factor for getting into any field of study, at least, not as much as it is the willingness to learn.
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StormRevolver
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Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 02:32 AM
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 02:23 AM
stops being the Factions equivalent of the "dark Mary Sue".
Looks at Frejlord working with Lissandra and fucking up their Rune Magic roll. Looks at Demacian Decision to flood Noxian Fleets that may have held Refugees with the Soldiers. Looks at Void and Shadow Isles actions during the Discord Arc, then looks at Zaun. YEA, TRY SAYING THAT AGAIN... I think you forgot about the part where Zaun never took the Full Void Path, or where we were the first to volunteer to help Bandle City with THE VOID LICH THEY SUMMONED!


the fact that you would never admit that zaun picked a very voidy path with malzahar and stuff just proves the mary sue :)

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We put a LOT of effort into everything we did, so it's only fair we get some cool toys


but i think this sentence shows the main problem with zaun and their fans. they always think they deserve more. they think they are the only ones who does stuff, just because they were the only ones who was let to do stuff, or got more active players than the other factions. Half of the research stuff you guys tought up should have been never allowed to be possible to make.
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 29 2015, 06:58 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 06:10 AM
Considering we are discussing this in a topic literally asking 'What do we want to be playing as next arc?' I imagine it'd kind of late to discuss accountability on intangible benefits like Research and Narrative.

And I'm sorry to grind your gears but I'm not intelligent enough to work in any Field Of Study, though I do admire the Pursuit Of Knowledge. So you'll have to forgive me for being ignorant of how science may work for you and/or any stereotypes existing.
On the contrary, it's either now or never. Yes, it's too late for this arc, but we can still make sure the next one benefits from a more balanced approach and we can avoid the "fan favourite faction" syndrome.

Intelligence is not a requirement for any field of work, it's an advantage. I come from a third world country where my fellow classmates were everything from middle-aged housewives to people from extremely poor backgrounds, I can assure you that willingness to devote time and effort into learning is what gets you places. Intelligence just makes it faster and easier.
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Kaynunot
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StormRevolver
Jan 29 2015, 06:45 AM
The fact that you would never admit that zaun picked a very voidy path with malzahar and stuff just proves the mary sue :)
Quote:
 
We put a LOT of effort into everything we did, so it's only fair we get some cool toys

but i think this sentence shows the main problem with zaun and their fans. they always think they deserve more. they think they are the only ones who does stuff, just because they were the only ones who was let to do stuff, or got more active players than the other factions. Half of the research stuff you guys tought up should have been never allowed to be possible to make.
Okay, let's ignore the fact we had no say in the Void Rift in Shurima, let's ignore that Malzahar-Malevolent as he is-was actually an expert in Void Energy which we needed to research to go fix Noxus, let's pretend Kassawin didn't go to Demacia first (though he was never recruited) and let's pretend we didn't take HKEM, Necrotek, or Call Of The Void. Yea, we're Totally Evil because we picked up Malzahar, the context that Void Energy was a pre-requisite for cleaning up Noxus is now Irrelevant.

And what we deserve is what we already earned, even by technicality of a faulty system. I'm really tired of trying to argue we should be allowed to keep what we earn. That's really so unreasonable, especially during a time when we could be discussing exactly what could be done to Nerf Zaun? (You know, like hitting Commerce which makes little sense considering how many people hate Zaun, reducing Military and Espionage because our research was OP as fuck in those categories, etc.)
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 07:12 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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The way I see it, what is actually necessary to balance things is to add subdivisions to each category.

That way, Zaun can get the benefits of its research without that becoming super inflated. Instead, they can have something like:

Espionage: 50 (Average). +20 to Counter-Espionage from PsiKorps.
Industry: 60 (Above Average). -20% time to finish industry projects at the cost of a 1 in 4 chance of a minor flaw in the project and a 1 in 10 chance of a major flaw (both can happen in the same project).
Research: 60 (Above Average). +20 to Hextech Research, +10 to Unnatural (Void, Necromancy) Research.

These are some examples, but it would allow Zaun to get niche advantages in certain areas without feeling like it's good at everything.
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