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Shurima vs. Zaun: Y/N?
Topic Started: Jan 27 2015, 09:09 PM (2,657 Views)
Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 07:25 AM
The way I see it, what is actually necessary to balance things is to add subdivisions to each category.

That way, Zaun can get the benefits of its research without that becoming super inflated. Instead, they can have something like:

Espionage: 50 (Average). +20 to Counter-Espionage from PsiKorps.
Industry: 60 (Above Average). -20% time to finish industry projects at the cost of a 1 in 4 chance of a minor flaw in the project and a 1 in 10 chance of a major flaw (both can happen in the same project).
Research: 60 (Above Average). +20 to Hextech Research, +10 to Unnatural (Void, Necromancy) Research.

These are some examples, but it would allow Zaun to get niche advantages in certain areas without feeling like it's good at everything.
We'd need to discuss contexts within the system itself, but I like these. They make sense and fit with the thematic theme of the faction, except perhaps the Industry Flaws... I'm not quite sure that makes sense, especially considering the most prominent use of industry-aside from rebuilding lost units-is in Construction. I don't quite get where Flaws come from, but I like the rest of it.
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From where I see it, Zaun typically inhabits a space somewhere between Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil. (Perhaps behaving closer to Lawful Evil in front of the league) So yes, I would in fact argue that Zaun is "evil", at least partially.
It's hard to say they aren't when you consider the path they took in Hextech Revolution. You can try to justify it by saying Zaun was a victim of circumstance, but they made a deal with Malzahar. They made a deal with what you might call the devil. If the consequences of such a thing are unclear, then... yeah.

The research projects will never be outright removed, but depending on balance they'll probably be adjusted in some way. What I do know is that research projects seem to be leaning more in the direction of not providing stat benefits whenever possible, and instead providing niche bonuses. What ShadowKnight posted could be considered an example of what we might be going for.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 07:42 AM
We'd need to discuss contexts within the system itself, but I like these. They make sense and fit with the thematic theme of the faction, except perhaps the Industry Flaws... I'm not quite sure that makes sense, especially considering the most prominent use of industry-aside from rebuilding lost units-is in Construction. I don't quite get where Flaws come from, but I like the rest of it.
The flaws in industry come from Zaun's willingness to do things hastily with no regards for safety in exchange for results. They finish things quicker, and possibly more cheaply, but their contraptions are often flawed in some way.

For Commerce, you can have Zaun have a below average stat, with its niche bonus or specialty being a +20 Commerce only for bribing the League in exchange for Favour.

For Military, I want to see Zaun having REALLY flawed units. Like "1 in 10 chance of exploding every turn of combat" type of thing. I am okay with Zaun pushing the envelope of science and getting some cool toys, but that type of advantage should come at a very heavy cost.

EDIT: VVVV If Zaun gets an exception, every other faction should also get an exception. That's how fairness works. :)
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Jan 29 2015, 08:21 AM.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 08:00 AM
It's hard to say they aren't (evil) when you consider the path they took in Hextech Revolution. You can try to justify it by saying Zaun was a victim of circumstance, but they made a deal with Malzahar. They made a deal with what you might call the devil. If the consequences of such a thing are unclear, then... yeah.

The research projects will never be outright removed, but depending on balance they'll probably be adjusted in some way. What I do know is that research projects seem to be leaning more in the direction of not providing stat benefits whenever possible, and instead providing niche bonuses. What ShadowKnight posted could be considered an example of what we might be going for.
I dunno, most Deals with the Devil don't turn out on quite the High Note like ours did... (AFTER kicking in everyone's heads for trying to take our stuff (though we were never actually asked about the Void Rift) we turned around and-with the help of the other factions (no thanks to that Toxic Darius during Zaun V Void)-managed to turn around and close the Void Rift with our newly found Mastery of the Extradimensional without destroying our Deposit of Pyrikhos.)

I'd like to see Research Projects Adjusted in such a way CrazyMLC... It would bring an element of Intrigue to Factions if Factions was less of an Arms Race and more of Expanding the Factions themselves... With the One Exception being Zaun keeps the HexKorps Military Boost because that's pretty freaking Iconic...

EDIT:
ShadowKnight1224
Jan 29 2015, 08:14 AM
The flaws in industry come from Zaun's willingness to do things hastily with no regards for safety in exchange for results. They finish things quicker, and possibly more cheaply, but their contraptions are often flawed in some way.

For Commerce, you can have Zaun have a below average stat, with its niche bonus or specialty being a +20 Commerce only for bribing the League in exchange for Favour.

For Military, I want to see Zaun having REALLY flawed units. Like "1 in 10 chance of exploding every turn of combat" type of thing. I am okay with Zaun pushing the envelope of science and getting some cool toys, but that type of advantage should come at a very heavy cost.

EDIT: VVVV If Zaun gets an exception, every other faction should also get an exception. That's how fairness works. :)

Zaun having a below average commerce stat makes sense lore-wise (Noxus and Bilgewater are pretty much the only City-States buying their stuff, the rest of their income would come from Private Contracts and such) And you explained Industry Defects well enough (except the part where currently the only places military applies are in building bases like we did for Barracks at Nyroth and regaining lost units, unless someone posted a new draft for Industry?)

Random Units combusting? Are you literally mad? No one in the right mind-much less Viktor and Singed-would create a Military that quite literally blows up for no reason. Writing it off as a Casualty Roll makes it funny, but having them spontaneously combust makes no sense. And it's not about Fairness in this case, it's about Common Sense (You know, the kind where the government itself would sue the living shit out of you if your gun exploded in someone's hand in the middle of a firefight? Zaun does have enough of a governmental structure they could do that.)
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 08:31 AM.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
Well, that I escalated quickly. At least it desalinated before anyone got too PO'd. Whew.

Just to clarify, this thread is not meant to convince anyone to think a certain way about the future of Factions. Really just wanted to check where the community stood on the topic. That being said, I'd like to give a little of my reasoning, maybe get feedback on its plausibility.

So Zaun sees that Azir is rebuilding his empire. This is, naturally, a concern for us because we were granted control over some of that land. Azir would like to back. Now, there are some options for Zaun to pursue.

1. Crush Shurima, seize the desert by force and return to status quo. Would probably receive some sanctions for the summary destruction on an entire civilization.

2. This option requires that we keep in mind that Zaun is greedy. Profit is everything. Zaun sees the potential for profit coming from Shurima and renegotiates use of the pyrikhos. As a result Zaun would gain: a potential ally, An additional layer of protection around the mines w/o having to allocate resources to it, and most importantly, increased access to the vast secrets of Shurima, particularly knowledge of the Ascension process. Oh, boy. PROFIT.

3. Give Shurima the mines and leave. Pfft. No.

4. Other, TBD.

Personally, I'm a fan of #2, but hey, that's just me. New perspectives welcome.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
I was mostly in favor of Number 2 if not a Peace Treaty before CrazyMLC explained why Zaun probably wouldn't immediately approach Azir from a negotiating standpoint. Now I'd LIKE Number 2, but I'm no longer super-advocating it right off the bat, perhaps after a bit of conflict or something.
Edited by Kaynunot, Jan 29 2015, 08:54 AM.
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Shurima is a fledgling faction with less military than Zaun has in its pinky finger. Zaun would lose protection, not gain it, from forfeiting the lands around their mines.

Also keep in mind that Zaun is still harboring what are more or less Shuriman criminals - Renekton and Xer'ath. An alliance of any kind would have to include forfeiting those champions, and would be a roadblock to any sort of peace deal.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 08:55 AM
Shurima is a fledgling faction with less military than Zaun has in its pinky finger. Zaun would lose protection, not gain it, from forfeiting the lands around their mines.

Also keep in mind that Zaun is still harboring what are more or less Shuriman criminals - Renekton and Xerath. An alliance of any kind would have to include forfeiting those champions, and would be a roadblock to any sort of peace deal.
Yea, that's a very good point... Ain't no way I'm letting Birbfather take Our Ascended God Ally. But uh... Until Military gets Reworked, we can't really say Zaun would beat the crap out of Shurima (We still have that 15 Military Power takes on 60, 15 wins issue to sort out)
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drmigit2
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Magus
Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 09:05 AM
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 08:55 AM
Shurima is a fledgling faction with less military than Zaun has in its pinky finger. Zaun would lose protection, not gain it, from forfeiting the lands around their mines.

Also keep in mind that Zaun is still harboring what are more or less Shuriman criminals - Renekton and Xerath. An alliance of any kind would have to include forfeiting those champions, and would be a roadblock to any sort of peace deal.
Yea, that's a very good point... Ain't no way I'm letting Birbfather take Our Ascended God Ally. But uh... Until Military gets Reworked, we can't really say Zaun would beat the crap out of Shurima (We still have that 15 Military Power takes on 60, 15 wins issue to sort out)
Yeah I'm more than certain that Azir is basically going to be the single most powerful character in Factions history, and will be able to create an army that will allow Shurima to at the minimum compete with Zaun inside of its lands. I imagine as a limiting factor, if Azir goes down so does Shurima's army. But on the battlefield, expect Azir, Nasus and Zillean to be a serious problem for any invader. More so than champions for other factions. In fact, it could be interesting to have Shruima's army be smaller, but populated by extremely powerful mages who when combined, are at least equal to most other armies.
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ShadowKnight1224
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If we can get Brand and Ryze on Shurima, that may well end up being the case.
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That's a good idea, and probably true. Shurima would probably get bonus military/extra units when defending, as long as Azir isn't incapacitated. (Sand soldiers op)


EDIT: It's also worth noting Shurima's performance so far in the intermission, where despite having the most matches of any faction, it has among the lowest winrates, tied closely with the Void and the Shadow Isles. This is, honestly, even more reason for Zaun not to take Shurima seriously or try to bargain with them.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Azir's military is probably tied to Shurima, so while they might be able to kick Zaun out, they don't really pose much of a threat... until we figure out exactly the borders of "Shurima" (since it used to expand throughout all or most of the lands south of the Great Barrier), and how far can Azir command his sand soldiers. That might prove to be important if one day the Void decides to strike again.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 02:42 AM
I don't see why there couldn't be peace. It doesn't have to be straight up war - the arc's conflict could potentially be resolved by a peace treaty of some sort, but there are some serious complications.


  • Azir claims the land Zaun owns to be his sovereign territory.
  • Zaun does not want to give up its deposits in Shurima.
  • Shurima is a weak nation with little political sway or military - Zaun does not have to listen to any of its demands if it doesn't want to. There is no reason for Zaun to take Shurima seriously.
  • Even if Zaun did give up the land around the deposits, there are foreign powers that would love to take advantage of Zaun's weakened security in those regions if it were forced to give up much of its territory.
  • Zaun is not a faction known for its humanitarian pursuits, or willingness to do the "right" thing.
  • Zaun is harboring what could be considered Shuriman fugitives, Renekton and Xer'ath.
  • Azir would probably want all of his land back, as well as Renekton and Xer'ath.


In my mind, the only reason Zaun would even consider giving in to the pitiful Shurima's demands out of the gate is if the support for Azir from the league was just so cripplingly powerful. (unlikely because of a lack of political presence)

But it's still possible for a treaty to be made, I just doubt Zaun would see it that way, at least at first.

In terms of these points, I feel like most of them are pretty easily worked past. Azir and Zaun aren't so proud or stupid to not see a mutually beneficial relationship when they see it. Azir knows he's still rebuilding, and given Zaun's current position on the world stage, they'd be a valuable ally for protection while Shurima gets itself off the ground. Zaun, on the other hand, would see it as beneficial because we would hold all the cards. While Zaun doesn't have the best reputation morally, these actions wouldn't be humanitarian, profit and information would be the primary motivators. That said, Renekton and Xerath present a VERY major problem. A major decision would have to be made there.


CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 08:55 AM
Shurima is a fledgling faction with less military than Zaun has in its pinky finger. Zaun would lose protection, not gain it, from forfeiting the lands around their mines.

Also keep in mind that Zaun is still harboring what are more or less Shuriman criminals - Renekton and Xer'ath. An alliance of any kind would have to include forfeiting those champions, and would be a roadblock to any sort of peace deal.


Zaun would still have to allocate resources to its mines, but Shurima's presence in the surrounding area would discourage potential bandits, as they'd have to pass through potentiall hostile territory. In regards to Renekton and Xerath, see above.
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rinsujo
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Winter's Claw for Life.
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 09:26 AM
... It's also worth noting Shurima's performance so far ...
Oh my god, Bandle.
Just...

Jesus Bandle.

When the next lowest faction has 3 times your winrate... and that faction is SI...

Bandle.
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AbiwonKenabi
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I'd argue Shurima's performance may be skewed by the fact that it seemed like everyone wanted to play them all the time. I saw people I'd never seen in factions before wanting to play them. And who knows what the matchups looked like...they could have easily been one-sided in many cases. They are also a new faction, so we don't know how well people--even regulars--are familiar with the matchups, champions, etc.

Aside from outside factors effecting Shurima's winrate, last I checked, we also have some factions who only have 1 or 2 games and a 100% winrate because of it. It would be foolish to take this to mean those factions are the strongest. In fact, if I remember correctly, those factions are Bilge and Zaun, who each dominated their respective arc thanks to coordination rather than out-right strength.

We just don't have the right analyses yet, or the number of games necessary to really get a feel to each faction's power. Bandle is the lowest winrate and yet, they have some very strong champions in the meta right now: Lulu, Gnar, Corki, Trist have all been picked in LCS recently, and other champs like Amumu and Ziggs make them a teamfighting powerhouse. Yet, they have the lowest winrate. There are a lot of factors to consider when judging a factions' strengths.

On a more opinionated note, I think Shurima's comp suffers from lack of a good support. Sivir is on the rise again as a really good engage ADC--which is great for the likes of Skarner, Rammus, Amumu and Renekton--but she's pretty much only got Zilean as a support option. Maybe a Rammus support might work better? Even then it has its problems. Further, Azir requires a high-skill to play--he's one of those champions that is great if you have a skilled Azir player or abysmal if you do not. And I consider him their primary mid (other than Xerath, but his alliance is sketchy or Zilean, which, again, is Shurima's only support.) I might make a thread later discussing Shurima strategies, since its a really unexplored place right now.
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StormRevolver
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Kuronan
Jan 29 2015, 07:11 AM
StormRevolver
Jan 29 2015, 06:45 AM
The fact that you would never admit that zaun picked a very voidy path with malzahar and stuff just proves the mary sue :)
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We put a LOT of effort into everything we did, so it's only fair we get some cool toys

but i think this sentence shows the main problem with zaun and their fans. they always think they deserve more. they think they are the only ones who does stuff, just because they were the only ones who was let to do stuff, or got more active players than the other factions. Half of the research stuff you guys tought up should have been never allowed to be possible to make.
Okay, let's ignore the fact we had no say in the Void Rift in Shurima, let's ignore that Malzahar-Malevolent as he is-was actually an expert in Void Energy which we needed to research to go fix Noxus, let's pretend Kassawin didn't go to Demacia first (though he was never recruited) and let's pretend we didn't take HKEM, Necrotek, or Call Of The Void. Yea, we're Totally Evil because we picked up Malzahar, the context that Void Energy was a pre-requisite for cleaning up Noxus is now Irrelevant.

And what we deserve is what we already earned, even by technicality of a faulty system. I'm really tired of trying to argue we should be allowed to keep what we earn. That's really so unreasonable, especially during a time when we could be discussing exactly what could be done to Nerf Zaun? (You know, like hitting Commerce which makes little sense considering how many people hate Zaun, reducing Military and Espionage because our research was OP as fuck in those categories, etc.)


as i said more mary sue. Zaun is all fun and everything it may did, it didnt do it or it was an accident, and every help it did it was from the good of their hearts XD seriously Kuro everything your write about zaun is such a heavy fanboyism, and has such a strong spin in it that its just funny by now XD i never said taking stuff away but you are again spinning and making stuff up XD Hell we should never tone done stuff to a proper level, or maybe give stuff drawbacks oh noes zaun deserves everything without any drawbacks! we are good guys! we tought malzahar is a good guy and the void is a happy place thats why we pour void ooze into everyone! XD
Edited by StormRevolver, Jan 29 2015, 03:47 PM.
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drmigit2
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Magus
rinsujo
Jan 29 2015, 12:36 PM
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 09:26 AM
... It's also worth noting Shurima's performance so far ...
Oh my god, Bandle.
Just...

Jesus Bandle.

When the next lowest faction has 3 times your winrate... and that faction is SI...

Bandle.
What's weird to me is that Bandle came in second place in Discord. I mean, it's not a bad faction in the least, just as of this moment none of the good players want to get near it. Bandle has a fantastic roster with Gnar, Amumu, Ziggs/Kennen (Kennen really REALLY works in their roster), Trist and Lulu all being super great. I mean, we could add Braum and it would make sense, but it's weird to me that they are doing as poorly as they are. It's not like BC runs a Shadow Isles style comp where everyone needs to be exactly on point at all times or everything falls apart. It's just a classic wombo-combo comp. This could be a statistical anomaly.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
drmigit2
Jan 29 2015, 04:04 PM
rinsujo
Jan 29 2015, 12:36 PM
CrazyMLC
Jan 29 2015, 09:26 AM
... It's also worth noting Shurima's performance so far ...
Oh my god, Bandle.
Just...

Jesus Bandle.

When the next lowest faction has 3 times your winrate... and that faction is SI...

Bandle.
What's weird to me is that Bandle came in second place in Discord. I mean, it's not a bad faction in the least, just as of this moment none of the good players want to get near it. Bandle has a fantastic roster with Gnar, Amumu, Ziggs/Kennen (Kennen really REALLY works in their roster), Trist and Lulu all being super great. I mean, we could add Braum and it would make sense, but it's weird to me that they are doing as poorly as they are. It's not like BC runs a Shadow Isles style comp where everyone needs to be exactly on point at all times or everything falls apart. It's just a classic wombo-combo comp. This could be a statistical anomaly.
It's because BC always has Teemo, who is like, such a common pick, despite not bringing anything to the teamfight (completely guilty of doing this.) The Braum pickup really helped last arc, also.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
Yeah, on paper, BC has a great roster, it's just that...y'know, the curse. Bit of an issue there. ( ;) :P )
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
Would it be racist of me to suggest that maybe we should have Bandle City summoners take Blood Tests to make sure they don't have Rabies, High Blood Pressure, or Excess Sodium? :P

I think Bandle tends to play Aggressive at times, even when they aren't winning. They want that One Teamfight that brings them back into the game even if teamfights have proven decisively against them. Sure, sometimes that like of thinking works but not always.
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