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Bard is here
Topic Started: Feb 24 2015, 12:25 PM (2,226 Views)
ShadowKnight1224
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The keywords are "cosmic" and "catastrophe". One faction losing an arc is neither cosmically relevant nor a catastrophe. The Void attempting to eat Runeterra? Rune Magic threatening to blow up the world? A global hextech thermonuclear detonation? Now any of that is cosmic and a catastrophe.
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ShadowKnight1224
Feb 25 2015, 01:53 AM
The keywords are "cosmic" and "catastrophe". One faction losing an arc is neither cosmically relevant nor a catastrophe. The Void attempting to eat Runeterra? Rune Magic threatening to blow up the world? A global hextech thermonuclear detonation? Now any of that is cosmic and a catastrophe.
If you're going to view it that way, then nothing that happens to Runeterra really matters in the grand scheme of things. One world is not significant in the cosmic scope of the universe.

But before we jump to conclusions, let's examine the two sentences of lore we do have.

two sentences of lore
 
The celestial vagabond known only as Bard dwells beyond the physical universe in realms unknown to man. Manifesting when others threaten the cosmic equilibrium, the ancient caretaker acts with speed and intent, only returning to his endless watch once he has steered Runeterra from catastrophe.

So let's break this down.


  • The celestial vagabond known only as Bard dwells beyond the physical universe in realms unknown to man.


Bard is a "celestial vagabond". This means that he travels between celestial bodies, each one just being another step in his journey.

And while the definition of vagabond is a traveler without a home, Bard still has a place where he "dwells." (an unknown non-physical realm)

We can assume that means he spends most of his time in this non-physical realm. And considering his nature as a vagabond, this probably means that the reason he spends so much time in the non-physical realm is it's how he travels between celestial bodies.
This can be seen, perhaps, in his E, Magical Journey. I believe this ability creates a portal to this non-physical realm, allowing travel between two locations.

Lastly, his only name is "Bard" which has a specific meaning. A bard is a poet, one that traditionally recites epics and are associated with oral traditions.

What does this mean? In all likelyhood, it means Bard is travelling the universe, in all its forms, in order to learn, and at one point tell, its story.

This is supported by the only other lore we have access to - his teaser.

The teaser stresses the power of stories and reliving our history. It also imparts the importance of the telling of the story over the importance of facts - something that oral traditions focus on. The teaser also hints that "the sky above whispers to us"

The teaser continues to list the most important events, including the Watchers enslaving Runeterra, the collapse of Shurima, and a shattered king's crown. (I believe the shattered king's crown refers to the creation of Sion, as it comments about how we should not try to enslave life and death to our will. But it might be a teaser for a future update)

And the final part of the teaser reveals that Bard is known as the Great Caretaker, and has only reappeared recently in the sky of Runeterra. Bard is also the one that inspired the ones speaking in the teaser to call themselves Bards. This also means that Bard has been to Runeterra at least once before, since this tribe of people know of his existence. (Bard is also not aligned with any one faction whatsoever, except perhaps the Bards)

So far, Bard is a vagabond with no home or faction, that travels between celestial bodies using the spirit world. He travels in order to learn the story of the universe, and the keep the story going by preventing catastrophe.

Let's move on.


  • Manifesting when others threaten the cosmic equilibrium, the ancient caretaker acts with speed and intent, only returning to his endless watch once he has steered Runeterra from catastrophe.


Bard travels to celestial bodies when the cosmic equilibrium is threatened. He acts as quickly as possible, with intent, meaning he only pursues actions that bring the equilibrium back into balance. He only leaves a celestial body once balance has been achieved, and there is no longer a conflict to record for his neverending story.

However he is not simply an observer, Bard participates in conflicts to bring back equilibrium, resolving them as quickly as possible so he can eventually leave the world to find stories elsewhere. In this sense, he is a Caretaker of worlds.

While on Runeterra, he would work to prevent further catastrophes. So any faction that would bring a catastrophe would be his enemy in the long term, although he may support them in the short term in order to weaken another faction that has become a greater threat. Since every faction would eventually bring catastrophe, it's probably safe to say he opposes most, if not all factions. What he fights for is balance.

Whether he fights for the status quo or the complete balance of each faction is something that is difficult to say, but I think it's safe to say that he would participate in any conflict that is worth remembering. (Ones that would make a good story.)

Once he does leave, he continues to watch over the world he has brought to peace, perhaps using his telescope he brings with him onto the rift.

(As a side note, he probably has some sort of tie with Soraka, both being celestial beings. Although she's sort of a fallen angel in that sense, so he doesn't necessarily support her.)
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silencermage
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Guys time to have an event to see who can get the tribe of bards to live in there factions jurisdiction =D. But really a good idea for a weekend match once bards released is maybe
war V.S. peace
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Zondervain
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*snip*
Edited by Zondervain, Feb 25 2015, 10:14 AM.
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Zondervain
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Feb 25 2015, 10:12 AM
CrazyMLC
Feb 25 2015, 03:47 AM
The teaser continues to list the most important events, including the Watchers enslaving Runeterra, the collapse of Shurima, and a shattered king's crown. (I believe the shattered king's crown refers to the creation of Sion, as it comments about how we should not try to enslave life and death to our will. But it might be a teaser for a future update)
I'm pretty sure the shattered kings' crown refers to the Shadow Isles. First off, look at Jarvan I's crown in Sion's splash (which Sion has for a jaw.) Its' peaks aren't equal in size, while the shattered kings' crown has three equally sized peaks around the edges, so it can't be Jarvans' crown. Further, while bringing back Sion had some pretty serious consequences, the most serious consequence in Valoran, on a truly cosmic level, is what happened to the Shadow Isles when the Ruined KING tried to tamper with death. In short, the Isles were transformed into an abomination.
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Ahh, I don't know much about the ruined king myself which is why I didn't come to that conclusion. Seems like you're right.
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Kaynunot
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My question is where is he going in World Systems? Everyone keeps saying Inverse Aatrox and I like that idea, if a Faction is really far behind and isn't particularly Evil in an arc, they can choose Aatrox (and gain insane Military Power) or maybe they can pick the Bard for Insight Bonus. if we wanted to take it a step further, each respective choice highlights a specific type of Campaign Style (Aatrox encourages Bloodshed and War, Bard promotes Balance and Equilibrium, maybe with a side of Good?) I really like the implication of a champion that works like that in World Systems, giving some hope to behind factions.

Also god damn it Zonder, I had that idea first! Perhaps not in those words though >.>
Edited by Kaynunot, Feb 25 2015, 12:53 PM.
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Zondervain
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Feb 25 2015, 12:50 PM
My question is where is he going in World Systems? Everyone keeps saying Inverse Aatrox and I like that idea, if a Faction is really far behind and isn't particularly Evil in an arc, they can choose Aatrox (and gain insane Military Power) or maybe they can pick the Bard for Insight Bonus. if we wanted to take it a step further, each respective choice highlights a specific type of Campaign Style (Aatrox encourages Bloodshed and War, Bard promotes Balance and Equilibrium, maybe with a side of Good?) I really like the implication of a champion that works like that in World Systems, giving some hope to behind factions.

Also god damn it Zonder, I had that idea first! Perhaps not in those words though >.>
First is a relative word. An independent conclusion is still an independent conclusion. :3

Edit- Of course, I do disagree with you about the whole "Shadow Isles is from Noxus+Demacia ancient union" idea. The Shadow Isles probably predates them and Shurima by a good bit of time and was its own independent nation. Not that Noxus+Demacia wasn't once a thing. I just don't think it's related to the Shadow Isles at all.
Edited by Zondervain, Feb 25 2015, 01:26 PM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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CrazyMLC
Feb 25 2015, 03:47 AM
If you're going to view it that way, then nothing that happens to Runeterra really matters in the grand scheme of things. One world is not significant in the cosmic scope of the universe.
This right here is the main flaw of your reasoning and what pollutes the entire chain of deductions.

The loss of one world IS a cosmic catastrophe. By definition. Even if there are countless other worlds out there, each individual world is part of the cosmic equilibrium, much like an ecosystem, and the loss of one world generates unforeseeable consequences for all the others, particularly if the world met its demise at the hands of the Void, and therefore strengthened it for its next conquest.

Bard is not an Ionian who wants "balance in all things" or anything like that, and it's frankly terrible to see how quickly the hivemind latches onto an idea with zero facts behind it and turns it into fanon.
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So if we're looking for a cosmic catastrophe, then we're looking for a catastrophe that either:

A: Is not of "this" world, Runeterra. (Or, potentially, a catastrophe that occurs on Runeterra that would effect the cosmos in some significant way.)

B: A catastrophe that is infinite in scope.


Knocking B out of the way is easy. Nothing that happens to Runeterra could even attempt to compare to infinity. There is no potential way for a catastrophe on a scope that we can even comprehend, especially in factions, to matter in the face of infinity. Every catastrophe we could even conceive of is finite in nature, perhaps excluding the multiverse ceasing to even be.

A could be tossed aside in a similar manner, but that may be a hasty judgement. It could, perhaps, be interpreted as being cosmic from the perspective of other worlds. Or, potentially, involve threats from beyond the world or realm of Runeterra, such as the Void. This could explain how the three stories that the Bards tell are of the Watchers, the Fall of Shurima, and the Ruined King. The Watchers could be viewed as a foreign entity, same as the ascended from Shurima, and maybe the undead count as being from another realm. But if you're to be this lenient with the definition of what is cosmic in nature, then most things in Runeterra count, seeing as it's such a magical place. Magic, or Mana itself could be viewed as interaction with another realm, and in that sense, cosmic in nature.

No, both of these definitions don't make sense, considering what we know about Bard. I think this is, in fact, a misunderstanding.

The lore never mentions Bard interacting with cosmic catastrophes. Only that he steers Runeterra away from catastrophe time and time again, in the name of cosmic equilibrium.

If we examine the use of cosmic when related to equilibrium, it suddenly makes sense.

Bard pursues the peace and equilibrium of the universe, or perhaps every universe, the multiverse, on an infinite scale. If we look at it from this perspective, him acting on an infinite scale, then it gives it new meaning. No conflict is too large for his participation, nor is any conflict too small of a trifle for him to solve. For if we act on the infinite scale, then why would he even care about Runeterra? But we know he does, as he appeared as a champion.

I would argue that his presence is not dictated by an arbitrary definition of what is of cosmic importance or not, as proven by his presence on Runeterra.

This would mean that the stories mentioned in his teaser are simply the highlights of what has occurred on Runeterra.


The real question for me is what would he have done during Discord? The lore said that Demacia had tipped the world's alignment towards order, and balance violently reasserted itself. Would Bard have fought for the Void?
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ShadowKnight1224
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You keep making the same argument, and it all relies on you dismissing the value of Runeterra as a significant part of the cosmic equilibrium. That right there is your crucial mistake and the reason your entire rationale is flawed. There is no evidence to dismiss Runeterra as inconsequential to the cosmic equilibrium, particularly when, as a world, it features creatures of literal godlike power, Ascended, literal celestial beings (Soraka, Kayle, Morgana, now Bard), commands the attention of a significant part of the Void's forces AND has been able to beat it back time and again, and its mages are able to summon destructive forces capable of tearing an entire world asunder.

The evidence in favour of Runeterra being a crucial part of the cosmic equilibrium vastly outweighs the evidence against it (which totals to nothing more than a vague philosophical 'one thing cannot be important in the vastness of the universe' argument).

Bard is not an Ionian and he cares not a whit about the philosophical concept of balance or the trivial disputes of factions, much less who is winning or losing at any given time. He's a cosmic caretaker that wanders a lot.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Feb 25 2015, 03:13 PM.
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I never said he was Ionian, nor have I ever. Even if they supposedly fight for the same thing (Does Ionia seem balanced to you?) that doesn't mean that they are aligned in any way shape or form. Ionia being a dominant force would still be a blow to the equilibrium of Runeterra.

And I'm sorry, but we're talking about the cosmic scale here. We're talking about infinity. If you think any amount of power, especially that which we can witness in league, even compares to the vastness of infinity, then you're a bit confused. While beings such as Azir may be "godlike" that doesn't mean that they are gods, or infinite in their power. More often than not, such beings are beaten back by pyromaniac children, sentient trees, or a guy with a sword and huge shoulder pauldrons. The only thing that might come close to being a literal god is Jax, if he had a real weapon.

Saying Runeterra is among the most powerful worlds in its universe is like saying Earth is the only planet with life. You could be right, since we don't really have any other examples of worlds with collections of power or life, but considering the universe and its other realms/dimensions are infinite in scope, it's statistically unlikely. Impossible is probably a better word. Infinity is a tricky concept.

But it's obvious Bard does care about Runeterra. Since he cares about Runeterra, in an infinite universe with spiritual realms, the void, and so many other connected universes, it's probably safe to say that he cares about things that are just as minor, like what you had for breakfast this morning. There's no reason he wouldn't fight in a conflict between nations to prevent a potential catastrophe, by maintaining equilibrium/balance. That's my stance.

But let's say that he is a humble caretaker of Runeterra.
He doesn't fight for balance or equilibrium wherever he is needed on a cosmic scale, as his lore states. Nor does he fight for chaos, nor good, nor evil, nor any other faction or ideology. He is the caretaker of Runeterra. But.... a caretaker of it how, then? What is he protecting? If not the balance and peace of Runeterra, then is he the caretaker of Runeterra in the sense that he's protecting the cosmos from it? Is he simply protecting the existence of the planet itself? Would it even matter if the Watchers took over Runeterra, then? Unless they began to threaten the existence of Runeterra itself, or threaten its cosmic neighbors, why would he care?
Well, let's say he does. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe the Watchers start causing trouble. So he does his thing, intervenes, saves the "cosmos" otherwise known as Runeterra and its neighbors. How does he do it? Well, it'd be by participating on the rift, as far as we know. He would fight against the Watchers, the dominant faction, yes? He would help all who oppose the Watchers.
Who is to say this same concept doesn't apply to other disputes we see in factions? Most of the arcs have involved the cosmos in one way or another, be it a meteor, invaders from another dimension, technology of power never before seen on Runeterra that allowed space travel, and so on.
This applies even moreso when these disputes involve the very "godlike" champions that are so important in the grand scheme of the cosmos.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Feb 25 2015, 04:00 PM
I never said he was Ionian, nor have I ever. Even if they supposedly fight for the same thing (Does Ionia seem balanced to you?) that doesn't mean that they are aligned in any way shape or form. Ionia being a dominant force would still be a blow to the equilibrium of Runeterra.

And I'm sorry, but we're talking about the cosmic scale here. We're talking about infinity. If you think any amount of power, especially that which we can witness in league, even compares to the vastness of infinity, then you're a bit confused.
Ionia are, philosophically speaking, devoted to balance. Making Bard be concerned about the philosophical concept of balance is making him an Ionian in spirit.

You have absolutely zero evidence to support your claim that Runeterra is not relevant in the cosmic scale. All you do is bring up the unproven assumptions that A) the cosmos of this fantasy universe is indeed infinite; and B) that it contains an infinity of comparable worlds to Runeterra. Even if A) was true, it does not follow that B) is, as there may be but a handful of worlds with intelligent species, or species capable of the magical power wielded by Runeterrans. You rest the entirety of your argument upon these assumptions that you take as axioms, when they are anything but. That makes anything you reason from these assumptions inherently fallacious.

It irks me to no end when people try to shoe-horn champions into rosters based on a single word taken out of context, or some extremely vague "thematic" link. If it was up to me, I would do some heavy cleanup of the rosters and remove some of these incoherent additions, such as Demacia having Leona, Alistar, Taric and Kayle.
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XalkXolc
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Okay, I tend to agree with Crazy here in that I think of Bard's involvement with Runeterra as a sort of "devil's in the details" thing wherein he cares about every little thing, because every little thing contributes to the cosmic balance or imbalance, in the same way that every atom that makes up an object matters.

However, I do think you two are arguing about completely different points. Crazy's more concerned with justifying Bard's presence on Runeterra, which was one of the first things I thought about, and Shadow's more concerned with keeping things straight in-universe, which I think is very important as well. While the two issues overlap, I really think that the point of contention is a bit of a minor detail in the grand scheme of things. Let's not get hung up on Runeterra's significance to the universe, because we really can't know until we have an established set of cosmological rules for League's universe.
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ShadowKnight1224
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I'm just trying to explain that there is a difference between being devoted to the philosophical concept of balance (which is what Ionians do, where they care about "balance in all things" and internalise it as a way of life) and being a caretaker of a macro-level grand equilibrium of things. One is an internalisation of a philosophy that you attempt to apply in your daily life and in all things. The other is watching over a macrosystem and attempting to correct anything that threatens its natural state. Bard is the latter, not the former.
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XalkXolc
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ShadowKnight1224
Feb 25 2015, 07:21 PM
I'm just trying to explain that there is a difference between being devoted to the philosophical concept of balance (which is what Ionians do, where they care about "balance in all things" and internalise it as a way of life) and being a caretaker of a macro-level grand equilibrium of things. One is an internalisation of a philosophy that you attempt to apply in your daily life and in all things. The other is watching over a macrosystem and attempting to correct anything that threatens its natural state. Bard is the latter, not the former.
Yeah, I had the same impression. The way I thought of it after that was that while Bard concerns himself with the macro, he understands that the micro and the macro are intertwined, and so is willing to concern himself with the details. Really just a way for me to justify Bard getting involved in minor disputes on the Fields, but I actually like how it turned out.
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ShadowKnight1224
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I'm sure he cares about the micro, but I just want to be able to find the right words to express myself: There's a difference between the philosophical concept of balance and the "ecological" one. The ecological concept of balance is extremely macro, and it's about the preservation of the overall equilibrium of the system. When you do this, you care about the micro because it contributes to the macro, but you don't care if the micro itself is balanced.

Balance on a philosophical level DOES care about balance in the micro, and that's the key, fundamental difference. A philosophical follower of balance literally does believe in Balance In All Things, and considers balance itself a virtue worth following and applying to everything it could possibly be applied to. Balance on an ecological level doesn't actually care about balance as a virtue, it sees balance on an eminently pragmatic level, as it is the only way the system will self-sustain. If the system is balanced, it will continue working synergistically with itself. If it's not balanced, it will collapse and everything will die. Therefore, in order to preserve the contents of the system, the overall balance must be preserved so that the system can self-sustain.

A key difference between both takes on balance is that the philosophical balance person will seek to impose balance on all the different moving parts of the system, which may in itself be harmful to the overall equilibrium of the system. Predators cannot be allowed to balance their diets, or else herbivore population will drastically increase, which will lead to a dearth of flora and the collapse of the ecosystem.
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XalkXolc
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ShadowKnight1224
Feb 25 2015, 07:48 PM
I'm sure he cares about the micro, but I just want to be able to find the right words to express myself: There's a difference between the philosophical concept of balance and the "ecological" one. The ecological concept of balance is extremely macro, and it's about the preservation of the overall equilibrium of the system. When you do this, you care about the micro because it contributes to the macro, but you don't care if the micro itself is balanced.

Balance on a philosophical level DOES care about balance in the micro, and that's the key, fundamental difference. A philosophical follower of balance literally does believe in Balance In All Things, and considers balance itself a virtue worth following and applying to everything it could possibly be applied to. Balance on an ecological level doesn't actually care about balance as a virtue, it sees balance on an eminently pragmatic level, as it is the only way the system will self-sustain. If the system is balanced, it will continue working synergistically with itself. If it's not balanced, it will collapse and everything will die. Therefore, in order to preserve the contents of the system, the overall balance must be preserved so that the system can self-sustain.

A key difference between both takes on balance is that the philosophical balance person will seek to impose balance on all the different moving parts of the system, which may in itself be harmful to the overall equilibrium of the system. Predators cannot be allowed to balance their diets, or else herbivore population will drastically increase, which will lead to a dearth of flora and the collapse of the ecosystem.
Your points, they are good ones. Sounds good to me.
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If A were true, then B would have to be true. In an infinite universe, as soon as you find the "most powerful" or "most important" world, it has already been surpassed. There is no such thing as "the most" in an infinite universe. Basically, you can think of a big number, but because of the very nature of infinity, there is a bigger number in existence. That is why I do not believe Runeterra is so incredibly relevant to the universe.

Basically, I'm saying that if Bard is a caretaker of an infinite universe, then to some extent he is likely omnipresent. If that is how he operates, then he is capable of being involved in practically every conflict, trying to maintain the status quo/cosmic equilibrium/safety of Runeterra. This could be the case, considering he "manifests" himself.

But just to be clear, the Ionian view of balance is somewhat misguided imo, because like you seem to be saying, they are concerned with balance in every single level. They view the world, and situations within, and even their own persons, as closed systems that must be balanced. I do not believe Bard thinks this way. He sees the big picture. Runeterra is not a self-contained system, and is inherently imbalanced within itself, but this imbalance helps to balance the rest of the universe. I believe he is willing to work on small scales however to achieve this balance, even in relatively minor conflicts within Runeterra. How he would accomplish this and what he would fight for is confusing at best, but we can probably assume he's against shifts in power, especially a catastrophic event changing the very nature of Runeterra.

I think this is a shift in my previous stance, where I mistakenly assumed that Bard would be concerned with the balance of Runeterra as a closed system. With my logic being that caring about Runeterra itself as a closed system is sort of arbitrary, so he must work that way on every level.

But perhaps you're right. Until we get some canon lore to say it is or isn't, it's difficult to say whether or not the universe containing Runeterra is infinite in scope. We can make assumptions based on our universe, but perhaps that is misguided. Maybe Runeterra's universe works on a scope a bit more manageable, like a galaxy, or a couple galaxies. Runeterra could indeed be the most powerful force within its galaxy. At this point, Bard would more or less be a caretaker of Runeterra, as opposed to the caretaker of the universe. But that doesn't necessarily change how he behaves within Runeterra.

As far as I understand, we're essentially arguing at this point whether Bard does his equilibrium thing from the bottom up, or the top down. Does he care about the little details? Does he only concern himself with major events? If so, what constitutes a major event in Runeterra?
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ShadowKnight1224
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CrazyMLC
Feb 26 2015, 01:08 AM
If A were true, then B would have to be true. In an infinite universe, as soon as you find the "most powerful" or "most important" world, it has already been surpassed. There is no such thing as "the most" in an infinite universe. Basically, you can think of a big number, but because of the very nature of infinity, there is a bigger number in existence. That is why I do not believe Runeterra is so incredibly relevant to the universe.

...

As far as I understand, we're essentially arguing whether Bard does his equilibrium thing from the bottom up, or the top down. Does he care about the little details? Does he only concern himself with major events? If so, what constitutes a major event in Runeterra?
The reasoning on your first paragraph is completely fallacious. This is a fantasy universe. It has magic. It does not abide by the laws of science. It's perfectly possible that there is a finite number of planets with intelligent life on it, and none which have reached Runeterra's capacity for world destruction. Runeterra may be the only planet in the universe with access to something the calibre of Rune Magic.

As for the last part, I believe Bard cares about the cosmos as a whole, and only about the individual planets in it if they are endangered, which would compromise the integrity of the cosmic balance as a whole. He cares about the little details inasmuch as they contribute/affect the big picture. He doesn't join X Faction because X Faction is losing, he joins X Faction because doing so is the best way to prevent a catastrophe in Runeterra.

I would consider anything short of "Runeterra is at risk of being destroyed" to be beneath Bard's attention. However, the recent Void incursions may give Bard reason to join the League as a way to keep his eyes on it, hoping to act before such a catastrophe can happen.
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