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So, um, Rito made a horrible change in the patch notes.
Topic Started: Feb 26 2015, 05:59 PM (2,736 Views)
Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
Revive has been removed.

Weep with me ;.;
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Deleted User
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Huge nerf to Phantoml0rd's karthus, imo.
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Rextreff
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Hoy, small fry
rip in piece best team comp 1927
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LordHippoman
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Invoker
Never Forget.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cw7DTvrdfA
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Wizard996
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Random Silver Scrub
Well, at least Yi wasn't reworked as drastically (except AP), really only the items and jungle changed.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
T.T

Seeing this change caused me some grief. WHERE'S MY OMNIPRESENT, RITO?!?
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CupcakeTrap
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I was going to use that as a disaster roll outcome (must take Revive in every Match for a week).
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C Drive
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CupcakeTrap
Feb 27 2015, 09:47 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I was going to use that as a disaster roll outcome (must take Revive in every Match for a week).
Are you sure that wouldn't be a buff to SI?
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TerraBooma
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There's still revive trinkets in Dom

yaay?
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

The changes to Veigar make me cry. I know that Cupcake is certainly the Veigar expert around here, but the little demon Yordle was my first ever mid laner and one of the most entertaining champions to play as. Rito, how could u?
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silencermage
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501st Big Mike
Mar 2 2015, 08:30 PM
The changes to Veigar make me cry. I know that Cupcake is certainly the Veigar expert around here, but the little demon Yordle was my first ever mid laner and one of the most entertaining champions to play as. Rito, how could u?
I agree I also don't like the changes to trist but those zilean changes....YES
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C Drive
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I like the Veigar changes. He's slightly harder to play because you need to use e either defensively or as a herding tool instead of a direct stun, but his potential is significantly higher. In the, albeit few, games that I've played using him, having just Athene's, Deathcap, and Void Staff, alongside good use of his q to get the +2 ap per spell cast frequently (+3 on cannon wave :o), I've hit close to 1000 ap with over +200 on average in bonus ap, which was virtually impossible to reach on old veigar without playing farming simulator. 4th item Lich Bane gives me 600 magic damage on autos, alongside his already damage heavy kit.

So while I might not be able to lockdown the enemy team for 3 seconds instantly, I can create a safety field for the backline or disengage wall for the team OR a follow up stun/disruption, destroy virtually any bruiser that comes for the backline, one shot almost any assassin, and still have an easy 2000 aoe damage per 6 seconds spell rotation. With 3 items, not including boots or lichbane. The new stattik AP item looks like it will make a good substitute for the lichbane for when I want more aoe dps.


The changes made him a teamfight damage god and a strong siege pick at a slight expense of his pick potential and overall consistency. But he's much more fun to play in my opinion.
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CupcakeTrap
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To me, it feels like his teamfight game became "throw a stun somewhere and lob damage at the enemy", and his 1v1 game became nonexistent.

It bothers me that his stun is incapable of actually stunning someone unless they're either standing still or choose to run into it. I like the change toward a "cage" mechanic, and never really liked the whole edge-stunning thing, but this new stun isn't really even a stun anymore.

After losing a few games and dropping even further below my already-low* Normal MMR, I ended up with opponents who would actually run into the wall if I psyched them out. But that's pretty sad. And to be honest, I was relying largely on people not yet realizing that the nerfs had gone through; they still acted as though I could hurt them, which helped panic them and create space. Once people start learning they don't have to be afraid of Veigar anymore, I think he'll get even worse. (I realize that if he gets super-fed he can still QR-burst a squishy with no MR. But the point of old Veigar was that if he caught you out you were deleted, even if you were a little tanky, and deleted in an extremely frustrating manner. If you played it right, you could get your opponents irrationally terrified of you, when you're just a kitty with a large hat.)

In short*, I'm not against the overall concept behind the changes, but they didn't execute them properly. They've got to give his cage some other mechanic; right now, it's a stun that can't stun.

*: Possible short joke.

Edited by CupcakeTrap, Mar 3 2015, 09:45 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
I like that he's less of a "you moved one pixel too close to me so now you're dead and there's nothing you can do about it" champion and more of a strategic quasi-Machiavellian mage. He has to plan ahead, set up traps and baits, calculate, it fits the image of a wannabe evil mastermind a lot better than his old playstyle. He has to adapt to every game anew, and figure out how to tackle the new problem. His burst is just as strong as (or even stronger than) before, it's just that his playstyle became a lot riskier for a higher reward.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Mar 3 2015, 09:48 AM.
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501st Big Mike
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C Drive
Mar 3 2015, 08:44 AM
I like the Veigar changes. He's slightly harder to play because you need to use e either defensively or as a herding tool instead of a direct stun, but his potential is significantly higher. In the, albeit few, games that I've played using him, having just Athene's, Deathcap, and Void Staff, alongside good use of his q to get the +2 ap per spell cast frequently (+3 on cannon wave :o), I've hit close to 1000 ap with over +200 on average in bonus ap, which was virtually impossible to reach on old veigar without playing farming simulator. 4th item Lich Bane gives me 600 magic damage on autos, alongside his already damage heavy kit.

So while I might not be able to lockdown the enemy team for 3 seconds instantly, I can create a safety field for the backline or disengage wall for the team OR a follow up stun/disruption, destroy virtually any bruiser that comes for the backline, one shot almost any assassin, and still have an easy 2000 aoe damage per 6 seconds spell rotation. With 3 items, not including boots or lichbane. The new stattik AP item looks like it will make a good substitute for the lichbane for when I want more aoe dps.


The changes made him a teamfight damage god and a strong siege pick at a slight expense of his pick potential and overall consistency. But he's much more fun to play in my opinion.
On the old Veigar you could easily get to 1000+ ap in a normal game, usually I would get around 1200 ap. I've gotten him up to 1500 ap in some of the more intense games I played on him. Combine that crazy ap with a DFG active (yeah its gone now, but old Viegar and the removal of DFG didn't overlap for very long), the 120% scaling on his old ult, and a lich bane...there was no one you couldn't blow up. So the argument that the new Veigar gets you more damage is flawed; if you properly last hit with q you could get every minion in your lane to give you the bonus ap, so the 2 hits don't mean much other saving a bit of mana, but proper mana management + passive + tear made up for this.

Let me list the nerfs really quick: 1) stun is no longer capable of stunning people unless they let you stun them; 2) Ult has 20% less scaling (keep in mind this is also after DFG was removed, which is odd cause the removal of DFG was already a rather large nerf to his damage output)

And now the buffs: 1) q can hit 2 people in teamfight; 2) q gains a hard to hit, long range harass in lane, no extra damage or harass ability gained, just some range at the cost of ability to land

What was old Veigar's role? Well, if he got good positioning in a fight before hand he could instantly delete a single carry while possibly getting a stun off on other members of enemy team, or catch someone out of position and delete them before a teamfight. The changes really screw this role around and on its head. The e makes it so he cannot catch someone out and its merely a zoning tool in teamfight. His q also doesn't even fit in with his need to position well to hit enemy backline.

The new Veigar completely kills his roll of needing good positioning to blow up a backline carry. If he gets good position he can't lock them down, so his W won't land unless enemy players let it; his ult doesn't have the same damage as it used to, so the lack of the W being able to land hurts even more; and the q might do a little damage to someone else in backline. So his incentive to position to nuke the enemy backline is very much weakened, that leaves the one advantage he gained, the q going through front line and hitting backline. But in that situation, if all he is hitting enemy carries with is his q, his role as being able to delete a single enemy is gone.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Mike, there's no way to argue that you aren't getting more AP with New Veigar than old. If you could get up to 1500 AP with Old Veigar, you are by necessity going to reach even more (possibly up to 1700-1800), simply by the sheer fact that you can get double the AP bonus from his Q. If you farm perfectly with Veigar's Q, you will always stay ahead of the AP curve when compared to any other AP midlaner, and I'm honestly pretty sure you won't be able to notice the 20% less AP ratio on his ult because I fully expect good Veigars to have way over 20% more AP than they used to have by the time they get their ult.

Also you forgot some buffs: R and W's mana cost and CD were lowered, and Q's CD was lowered (letting you stack AP quicker).
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501st Big Mike
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Old Veigar's Q: (taken from League of Legend's Veigar Page)
Unleashes dark energy at target enemy, dealing 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% Ability Power) Magic Damage. If the target is killed, Veigar gains 1 Ability Power. This bonus is doubled against Champions, large minions and large monsters.
Veigar gains 1/2/3/4/5 Ability Power when he kills a champion from any source of damage.

New Veigar Q: (taken from League Wiki's Veigar Page)
Unleashes a ball of dark energy in a line, dealing magic damage to up to two enemy units. 80 / 125 / 170 / 215 / 260 (+ 60% AP) Every time this ability kills a unit, Veigar gains 1 ability power permanently (doubled against large minions, large monsters, and champions).
Veigar gains permanent bonus 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 ability power when he kills a champion from any source of damage

Those numbers haven't changed a single bit. The only difference is that Veigar can kill 2 units with one q if he does it correctly. If you correctly last hit with old q the same number of enemies you killed with new q, the ap gain is exactly the same.
Edited by 501st Big Mike, Mar 3 2015, 03:58 PM.
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silencermage
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If anything the new q makes early q farming harder because if you mess up you kill a minion and hurt the one behind it making you miss farm
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501st Big Mike
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silencermage
Mar 3 2015, 03:23 PM
If anything the new q makes early q farming harder because if you mess up you kill a minion and hurt the one behind it making you miss farm
^
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ShadowKnight1224
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501st Big Mike
Mar 3 2015, 03:10 PM
The only difference is that Veigar can kill 2 units with one q if he does it correctly. If you correctly last hit with old q the same number of enemies you killed with new q, the ap gain is exactly the same.
There's no way you were able to farm every single minion with Q on Old Veigar. Between the ability's CD and enemy pressure, you were bound to miss a couple of minions per wave. With the new Q, it's realistically possible to farm every single minion with your Q, so the AP gain would not be the same as before.

Also the numbers HAVE changed on the ability: It's in the cooldown. Having the ability up more often helps immensely when it comes to farming.
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