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So, um, Rito made a horrible change in the patch notes.
Topic Started: Feb 26 2015, 05:59 PM (2,740 Views)
501st Big Mike
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It was possible to get every minion in a wave using Veigars old q if used correctly and factoring enemy last hitting your minions. I have gotten a whole wave of minions with my q before on Veigar; not saying I can consistantly do that with every wave (no one has a 100% cs last hit rate, that's like 12.7 cs per min ignoring super minions), but it can be done. The new q does not change that possibility; the decreased cd and mana somewhat balance out the added difficulty that silencer mentioned, but overall there isn't a change in how much ap Veigar can gain from his Q
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ShadowKnight1224
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I still think that the CD reduction on the Q and the double-tap makes stacking AP on Veigar a lot easier, and that the nerfs are nowhere near as terrible as people make them out to be, particularly with the compensation buffs he received.
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The changes weakened a lot of his matchups, but it's definitely a small buff to his damage potential lategame, as long as you can hit all of your spells. Additionally, having Q be multihit is also good in teamfights, if used properly. The 20% ap ratio off his ult was a bit painful, though. It's really a mixed bag. But overall it's a huge nerf to his reliability, turning one of his abilities into a skillshot and giving another skillshot a large cast time.
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C Drive
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501st Big Mike
Mar 3 2015, 02:32 PM
On the old Veigar you could easily get to 1000+ ap in a normal game, usually I would get around 1200 ap. I've gotten him up to 1500 ap in some of the more intense games I played on him. Combine that crazy ap with a DFG active (yeah its gone now, but old Viegar and the removal of DFG didn't overlap for very long), the 120% scaling on his old ult, and a lich bane...there was no one you couldn't blow up. So the argument that the new Veigar gets you more damage is flawed; if you properly last hit with q you could get every minion in your lane to give you the bonus ap, so the 2 hits don't mean much other saving a bit of mana, but proper mana management + passive + tear made up for this.

Let me list the nerfs really quick: 1) stun is no longer capable of stunning people unless they let you stun them; 2) Ult has 20% less scaling (keep in mind this is also after DFG was removed, which is odd cause the removal of DFG was already a rather large nerf to his damage output)

And now the buffs: 1) q can hit 2 people in teamfight; 2) q gains a hard to hit, long range harass in lane, no extra damage or harass ability gained, just some range at the cost of ability to land

What was old Veigar's role? Well, if he got good positioning in a fight before hand he could instantly delete a single carry while possibly getting a stun off on other members of enemy team, or catch someone out of position and delete them before a teamfight. The changes really screw this role around and on its head. The e makes it so he cannot catch someone out and its merely a zoning tool in teamfight. His q also doesn't even fit in with his need to position well to hit enemy backline.

The new Veigar completely kills his roll of needing good positioning to blow up a backline carry. If he gets good position he can't lock them down, so his W won't land unless enemy players let it; his ult doesn't have the same damage as it used to, so the lack of the W being able to land hurts even more; and the q might do a little damage to someone else in backline. So his incentive to position to nuke the enemy backline is very much weakened, that leaves the one advantage he gained, the q going through front line and hitting backline. But in that situation, if all he is hitting enemy carries with is his q, his role as being able to delete a single enemy is gone.
I'll reply paragraph by paragraph.

First paragraph, any champion can hit 1000+ ap. That in itself is not a particularly impressive feat. I'm getting incredibly close to 1000 AP at 3 items. THAT is the impressive feat. Only 2 champions can consistently hit higher than 1000 AP without being full built, and that's Cassio and Veigar. And assuming basic laning, I'm getting 1000+ easily at 4 items. THAT is dangerous considering Veigar has, at only 20% cdr, a 5 second cd aoe 1:1 ap ratio spell, a 4 second .6 ratio on a very easy skillshot, and a point and click 1:1 ap ratio + .8 enemy ratio single target nuke. And that's before full build, so I could theoretically add lichbane for more damage, banshee's for more survivability, wota for spell vamp, whatever I need. The upfront damage may be lower because of reduced ratios, but the damage over time he brings is significantly higher now because of his reduced cooldowns. (I will make a more coherent argument further down about how this makes him closer to a pure mage role rather than the assassin role everyone is fretting about him losing, but that is the general premise for why I like this change)

Second paragraph, I lament the stun changes like every other Veigar player. I spent a large amount of time learning to land the circle, so I'm upset it's gone. That will be the only point I concede for this paragraph. DFG, on current, Veigar is unnecessary and the extra .2 ratio on his R is unnecessary. The major reason why is it was so core in the old kit was because he was gated by much higher overall cooldowns on his spells, therefore his first spell rotation was his most important. DFG supplements that kind of playstyle. However, because of the CD buffs on his spells, Veigar can easily get two or three spell rotations off during a teamfight. The extra upfront damage from his first spell rotation is no longer needed because of it. It is now entirely possible to drop two Ws with new Veigar in the time it would take you to drop one W, Q can now hit 2 targets, meaning that his possible damage on one spell cast for Q is now higher despite the slightly higher cd it is now on, meaning the virtually identical time it takes to do two casts of Q from old to new Veigar has a little under 100% greater damage potential. I do not lament the extra magic damage from dfg, or the .2 ratio because I've basically added another .6 ratio on my q and another 1:1 ratio in my spell rotation.

Third paragraph, I do not lament losing a point and click for a much more potent skillshot. It is a very fast skill shot with a very responsive hitbox, a longer range, the ability to hit through minion waves, and doubles potential damage output. If I have to be able to aim to make it most useful, so be it. Other champions have that type of skill curve, and they perform just fine with it.


And here is where I will go into why fixating on his old role of assassin mage is wrong. As I mentioned before, assassins are usually gated by a cooldown on a crucial spell to do their maximum damage. Old Veigar had this problem, as all of his cooldowns except Q were fairly high. As such, he relied on playing around 1 spell rotation, and putting as much damage as he could in that 1 rotation. Which is already a problem for an immobile champion, but people worked with it, as did I, so I'm not going to remark on the problems of playing an immobile assassin. New Veigar does not suffer from this problem though. Instead, rather than having the upfront effects necessary for an assassin to thrive, new Veigar has lower cooldowns, which allows him to put out spell damage on a much more consistent basis. It's like Xerath in a sense. Old Xerath was basically an assassin because his playstyle revolved around hiding in a bush until somebody got too close and you blew them up with 1 spell rotation. When he was changed, his spells were no longer gated around the one crucial spell, which was either his W or his E depending on the stage of the game. As such, new Xerath became a mage rather than his old role of a weird mage assassin.

As such it becomes important to assume that such a change of roles could happen with Veigar's changes. So when you look at the changes, a lot of similarities occur between Xerath's changes and Veigar's changes. The problems of relying on 1 spell rotation was removed for both of them after changes. In addition, greater versatility was given to their kits in the form of cooldown reduction and range for Veigar, greater mobility and spell effects for Xerath. It should stand to reason that a role change similar to how Xerath's role changed has occurred to Veigar. Rather than relying on blowing up the enemy backline, Veigar's new role relies on playing from the backline because he has lost the consistency of his E, so he's now in a similar position to where Xerath would be during a fight. The major difference is Xerath has the range to target the backline from the backline, while lacking damage compared to Veigar. So Xerath's role is backline artillery. Then what does Veigar have? He doesn't nearly have the same range as Xerath, so he can't hope to be artillery. But what he has over Xerath is the ability to heavily zone and put down significantly larger amounts of damage than Xerath can. So I would propose that Veigar is basically playing something akin to Orianna, with damage and cc threat that forces zoning and chips away at the enemy while they're forced to play around his zoning. He threatens assassins from diving with threat of his R, and he zones bruisers with his E and W, at risk of being either stunned to be shredded by the adc, or eating a huge meteor to the face. The Q is versatile enough now that it can function as poke, particularly against pushing teams.


So if you're looking at his changes and trying to find and play the old Veigar role, you're not going to find it and be disappointed. If you play accordingly to how I believe he should be played, I think you'll find it to be much more successful and, for me, it was much more enjoyable.
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CupcakeTrap
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Mar 3 2015, 05:51 PM
Rather than relying on blowing up the enemy backline, Veigar's new role relies on playing from the backline because he has lost the consistency of his E, so he's now in a similar position to where Xerath would be during a fight.
This was my overall impression of the changes, and I don't really like it. It feels like he just tosses E down to zone the enemy (though it's no longer possible to stun a non-stupid enemy) and then starts indiscriminately lobbing damage into the fight. There's no dramatic decision point where you go for the 100-0, and the "teamfight" option is less interesting as well, as you can no longer stun multiple targets (or any targets). He also no longer has a 1v1 game: before, the success case was landing your stun on the edge (and killing them), and the failure case was missing (and getting obliterated). Now, it's always the latter. His 1v1 now is just trading shots back and forth. If they buff his numbers enough, he might be able to win facepunching contests, but I think he'll be much more boring for it.

I'm just not as okay with Veigar as "gradual DPS poke-mage" as you seem to be. I think they need to add some new mechanic to his cage. As it is, it only stuns targets who are either already stunned or else choose to run into it, and there are very few reasons why an enemy would want to run into it. (The only one I can think of is a chase: you might want to eat ~2s of stun plus some damage rather than waiting 3s for the walls to fall.) I don't like the idea of a skill that only works if the enemy doesn't understand how it works (or for some other reason chooses to run into the stun).
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Mar 3 2015, 06:24 PM.
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I was anticipating the changes to benefit more of the kiting Veigar build with rylai, since it gives him some solid cc to fall back to if he can't stun the enemy. But the change of his Q from being single target to multi target kind of ruins that build.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Well, it seems Veigar players have complained enough that Riot is giving the Rage Cage a small buff:

"Veigar
Baleful Strike (Q ) missile speed increased to 2200 from 1750.
Event Horizon (E) now stops dashes early (such as Graves E or LeBlanc W) that come in contact with the wall. This does NOT work for Flash / Blinks (such as Ezreal's E or Kass R)"

EDIT:

Another buff:

"Event Horizon (E) warning particle/delay now begins at the start of Veigar's E's .25 cast time seconds) rather than at the end.
[Note: While the warning particle/delay is still .75 seconds, the change in order makes the whole process .25 second faster.]"
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Mar 4 2015, 02:19 AM.
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C Drive
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I'm not complaining, even if I think his kit is fine right now, buffs are buffs.
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CupcakeTrap
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ShadowKnight1224
Mar 4 2015, 02:17 AM
Well, it seems Veigar players have complained enough that Riot is giving the Rage Cage a small buff:

"Veigar
Baleful Strike (Q ) missile speed increased to 2200 from 1750.
Event Horizon (E) now stops dashes early (such as Graves E or LeBlanc W) that come in contact with the wall. This does NOT work for Flash / Blinks (such as Ezreal's E or Kass R)"

EDIT:

Another buff:

"Event Horizon (E) warning particle/delay now begins at the start of Veigar's E's .25 cast time seconds) rather than at the end.
[Note: While the warning particle/delay is still .75 seconds, the change in order makes the whole process .25 second faster.]"
It's still almost a full second for someone to step aside. It's the same delay as on Cho's Rupture, but whereas that's a big filled circle, this is a narrow circular border. I really do not think anyone could possibly get stunned by this unless they're being a complete idiot.
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Wooo, the stopping dashes buff was actually something I suggested on the PBE boards. Glad they put it in. Helps him out in a lot of matchups.

(Like when there's a Shen in the game that ults in and dashes from inside your cage onto you, and even though he's stunned, he still got his cc off on you. That can't happen anymore)
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LordHippoman
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CupcakeTrap
Mar 4 2015, 09:57 AM
I really do not think anyone could possibly get stunned by this unless they're being a complete idiot.
As a pre-rework Viktor player, I can confirm that yes, people will stand in the big purple "BAD STUFF" fields, especially if your champ is obscure enough that they don't know it will eventually stun them for easy lasering.

There's a reason "Don't Stand In The Purple" was my Skype message for like 3 months.
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ShadowKnight1224
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CupcakeTrap
Mar 4 2015, 09:57 AM
It's still almost a full second for someone to step aside. It's the same delay as on Cho's Rupture, but whereas that's a big filled circle, this is a narrow circular border. I really do not think anyone could possibly get stunned by this unless they're being a complete idiot.
Yes, but since the .75 seconds begin to count from the moment Veigar begins to cast, that effectively turns the time they have to escape to .5 seconds. This means that you should try to aim it directly on top of them, so that they think they have time to escape but end up stunned against the wall (especially if they try to dash out). If they stay in the center, well, that's where you aim your W.
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501st Big Mike
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If they stay in the center, there is enough area inside the cage to dodge the damage from your W.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Well, a buff on the W area wouldn't be terribly overpowered, given how hard it is to land. Seems like a good place to go in the future if Veigar isn't up to par.
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501st Big Mike
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Yeah, the delay and hit area of Veigar's W is what has made his E essential to his kit. Unless the enemy was stupid and let the W hit them, he wasn't going to land it unless he could stun them first. The E also served him several other purposes, but now his combo is completely reliant on 2 abilities that if the enemy player is smart, they will easily dodge both. That's my biggest beef with the new Veigar; yeah I don't like decreased ult damage, and yeah I don't exactly feel like the q was much of a buff, but his old damage combo is gone and he has no reliable way to land his damage unless the enemy ignores one of the 2 delayed abilities.
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ShadowKnight1224
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The ult got overall buffed though. 20% less AP ratio is nothing compared to the huge mana cost and cooldown reductions.

And the Q got an overall buff, given that it has less CD than before and can hit a target behind it, effectively doubling your DPS and AP gains, even if it's now a skillshot. The W also got slightly buffed (CD and mana reductions) at no nerfs at all.

The only true nerf was the E, which is why I just flat out do not believe people who say that the Veigar changes were nerfs. It's definitely a playstyle change and the E may need a very tiny buff in the future, but the fact that his playstyle has been changed is a good thing for the overall health of the game.
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Let's be honest. His ult's purpose is to nuke people. No amount of damage loss is worth a relatively small decrease in mana cost and cooldown. It was, overall, a nerf. They wanted to reduce his burst potential.

Q is a bit more of a mixed bag. Sure it has twice its original potential, but it sacrifices something Veigar already severely lacks - reliability. All three of his basic skills are skillshots, opening up the possibility for him to completely whiff every single spell and do absolutely nothing.
Sure Q's best case got better, but its worse case is also far worse. His consistency, something he already lacked, is down the drain with this change and the nerf to his E.

The only true positive is the buff to his Dark Matter, which lowers its cooldown and mana cost, making it a bit more forgiving if you miss it. (Which you will, since you can't land stuns reliably anymore)
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ShadowKnight1224
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At 40% CDR, his rank 3 ult is up every 58 seconds. That's a 500 + 100% AP + 80% of the target's AP magic damage nuke once per minute. And it's not a skillshot. Even if all you do in a teamfight is get that ult off, it's going to do a tremendous amount of damage to any non-tank you cast it on.
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That's as much as one or two ADC autos. Those are also point and click, and have a much shorter cooldown. That alone is not an acceptable contribution to a teamfight.
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501st Big Mike
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Your argument of "Even if all you do in a teamfight is get that ult off" does not help you in any way. His ult got nerfed and nothing added to it, the Q I consider a net wash, and the W does make up for the ult and E nerfs even slightly.

When was the last time you heard someone on your team say, "Screw this! I have to lane against %&*#ing Veigar. This is bs as hell."? I actually heard a more lot of, "XD, the noob blind picked Veigar mid. I'll roam top and bot after I get my first few kills off this chump." Which begs the question: Why did Riot feel the need to nerf the little guy? They even say that it is an nerf overall.
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