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So, um, Rito made a horrible change in the patch notes.
Topic Started: Feb 26 2015, 05:59 PM (2,739 Views)
ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
CrazyMLC
Mar 4 2015, 06:00 PM
That's as much as one or two ADC autos. Those are also point and click, and have a much shorter cooldown. That alone is not an acceptable contribution to a teamfight.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen an ADC get more than 300-350 AD tops at the fullest of full builds, while Veigar can now comfortably reach 1000 AP at full build after stacking Q fully.

That's not one or two autos from an ADC, that's more like 3 or 4. And if you let the full-build ADC auto a squishy 3-4 times, that squishy is going to die, just like if they get Veigar ulted.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Mar 4 2015, 07:46 PM.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

1500 dmg is easily 2 adc autos, especially if they have crit (which most do).
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Let's assume Veigar was able to maneuver past the front line somehow, and ult a squishy target. He does maybe 1500 damage with it, maybe up to 2000 depending on the enemy's ap, before mr.

An ADC without steroids, for this example I'll use Caitlyn, with only 5 offensive items, berzerker greaves, infinite edge, bloodthirster, phantom dancer, and last whisper, gets up to approximately 390 AD, 250% crit damage, 55% crit chance, and 1.55 attacks per second. (Including masteries, runes, elixir of wrath, and first dragon buff)

If you average out the crit chance/crit damage stats into a flat damage amplification, a single auto attack would do 711 damage, with precisely the same range as Veigar's ult. Two of those auto attacks will deal about as much damage as Veigar's ult.

The damage per auto gets up to 900 with another bf sword item - 1,000 if it's a second ie.

A single spell of any kind from Veigar will never be an acceptable contribution to a teamfight when compared to the potential damage of other champions.
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ShadowKnight1224
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CrazyMLC
Mar 5 2015, 01:09 AM
A single spell of any kind from Veigar will never be an acceptable contribution to a teamfight when compared to the potential damage of other champions.
So you're saying that someone like Syndra is only useful for her stun in teamfights, rather than her ability to delete people with her ult? I mean, Syndra has seen plenty of pro play and her stun is awkward and difficult to aim, while her ult is pretty much the same as Veigar's, a single-target nuke. Seems like Syndra manages to get away with being a low-cc burst mage just fine.
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Mar 5 2015, 02:34 AM
CrazyMLC
Mar 5 2015, 01:09 AM
A single spell of any kind from Veigar will never be an acceptable contribution to a teamfight when compared to the potential damage of other champions.
So you're saying that someone like Syndra is only useful for her stun in teamfights, rather than her ability to delete people with her ult? I mean, Syndra has seen plenty of pro play and her stun is awkward and difficult to aim, while her ult is pretty much the same as Veigar's, a single-target nuke. Seems like Syndra manages to get away with being a low-cc burst mage just fine.
The Problem with this is her Stun is now more reliable than Veigar's. The delay on her stun is little and is in a line positional to where she is standing. It's a Skillshot with essentially a half-second delay for casting.

Veigar's Stun meanwhile, has two problems: First, it's mechanics are extremely awkward as a stun. In order to get Stunned, you need to run INTO THE WALL. If you just stand in the center then nothing happens and if you are outside the wall, again, nothing happens unless you run into it. Second, it's a Telegraphed Stun. You can SEE Where it's going to hit, unlike Syndra's Stun. She can pop a ball and force a stun, but Veigar's stun takes .75 seconds to activate. You can seriously see it and just run out of the ring in that time, or even out of the entire 'cage' if you are close to the edge.

Finally, a Strong Syndra Player will have 5-6 balls out when she ults. While it does take her a while to build up, she does in fact have a more reliable ult than Veigar's because hers does damage based on the number of balls, not on what your enemy built. If Veigar gets locked against, say, Zed Mid, his life's gonna be really shitty. Syndra doesn't care as much because she didn't need her opponent to build AP to have a strong ultimate against them, she just needs to make sure he ults first so he can't dodge her ultimate.
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Syndra is more mobile than Veigar, since she can move while casting. She also has a knockback and a slow in addition to a stun, and more sustained dps, which is also aoe instead of 1 to 2 targets. Her ult is as good as Veigar's for putting out a burst of damage.
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ShadowKnight1224
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While I agree that Veigar's stun is a lot more unreliable now, I think it's a lot healthier for the game that it's not as perfectly reliable as it was before.

Perhaps something that can be done is to make the entire AoE of the E provide some sort of debuff to targets trapped inside. Reducing their damage output or increasing the damage they take can easily make the E useful in teamfights without having to actually stun anyone.
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Kaynunot
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ShadowKnight1224
Mar 5 2015, 03:58 AM
While I agree that Veigar's stun is a lot more unreliable now, I think it's a lot healthier for the game that it's not as perfectly reliable as it was before.

Perhaps something that can be done is to make the entire AoE of the E provide some sort of debuff to targets trapped inside. Reducing their damage output or increasing the damage they take can easily make the E useful in teamfights without having to actually stun anyone.
I have to agree he's healthier now, but at what cost? Cupcake and I were talking when I was playing with him on stream and discussing the changes with him. I have to agree with the sentiment it doesn't really feel like a Cage or Prison now, just a really shitty Stun. I was thinking it would either Amplify Damage taken (a REALLY good incentive to try to flash out or blow cooldowns making sure you aren't caught in it) or apply a Movement Speed Slow, making it easier to land Dark Matter and Banefil Strike (which is THE WHOLE REASON YOU EVEN TRY TO STUN THEM ANYWAY! Well, besides a good Zoning/Disengage Tool, but it doesn't do that in it's present state)
Edited by Kaynunot, Mar 5 2015, 05:18 AM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Kuronan
Mar 5 2015, 05:02 AM
I have to agree he's healthier now, but at what cost? Cupcake and I were talking when I was playing with him on stream and discussing the changes with him. I have to agree with the sentiment it doesn't really feel like a Cage or Prison now, just a really shitty Stun. I was thinking it would either Amplify Damage taken (a REALLY good incentive to try to flash out or blow cooldowns making sure you aren't caught in it) or apply a Movement Speed Slow, making it easier to land Dark Matter and Banefil Strike (which is THE WHOLE REASON YOU EVEN TRY TO STUN THEM ANYWAY! Well, besides a good Zoning/Disengage Tool, but it doesn't do that in it's present state)
The problem with the slow is that it'd make the ability look too much like Viktor's. Damage amplification is a possibility, since they gave that to Fizz's ult to make up for the nerfs, but I think it'd make his kit more interesting if he was given other sorts of debuffs on the Rage Cage, like a damage output reduction (to create a feeling of powerlessness if Veigar gets you). It would also be interesting if the debuff changed over the .75 second delay, like an aoe slow turning into a damage amp or damage reduction with the stun in the edges.
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C Drive
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I'd actually like his E to reduce the magic resist of enemies inside it. That would give more incentives to use it aggressively rather than defensively, which is the primary way I use it now. A slow would be counterproductive, as it just gives the person more time to realize, "wait, I'm walking into the stun".
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XalkXolc
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Personally, I don't have much experience with Veigar in general. However, I do feel like old Veigar could've had more in terms of meaningful counterplay, which is what Riot tried to accomplish with these changes. Unfortunately, they definitely could've done better. In the meantime, we'll just have to wait for a more complete rework. I REALLY hope it's in the works; current Veigar feels like a half-finished project.
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501st Big Mike
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This is what I am convinced is Riots strategy with "balancing" a lot of the champions.
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LightPhyXer
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The thing that bugs me most about the Veigar changes isn't the stun change, even though that definitely is one of the biggest weaknesses Riot put in (which they are trying to remedy with the buffs coming down on PBE). No, my problem is Q changing to a two-hit spell, meaning it's now counted as an AoE spell for the purposes of spellvamp and, more importantly, Rylai's. Now I can't go a tankier CDR build, rely on AP farming to beef up my damage, and just become a terror you can't run away from once you're in range of Q.

Of course, the skillshot nature of Q also makes it extremely annoying when you are flashing for that one last Q and then minions show up right on time to block.

I just want my playstyle back ;_;
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ShadowKnight1224
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Well now it's actually easier to stay on top of your AP game and build tanky, since the Q doublestack mechanic helps with that.

Since Q also got a CD reduction, you might be able to just permaslow someone at 40% CDR anyway, even if it's a weaker slow.

But yeah, for a skillshot that can only hit two targets, IMO they should make an exception to the AoE rule.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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LightPhyXer
Mar 7 2015, 02:39 AM
The thing that bugs me most about the Veigar changes isn't the stun change, even though that definitely is one of the biggest weaknesses Riot put in (which they are trying to remedy with the buffs coming down on PBE). No, my problem is Q changing to a two-hit spell, meaning it's now counted as an AoE spell for the purposes of spellvamp and, more importantly, Rylai's. Now I can't go a tankier CDR build, rely on AP farming to beef up my damage, and just become a terror you can't run away from once you're in range of Q.

Of course, the skillshot nature of Q also makes it extremely annoying when you are flashing for that one last Q and then minions show up right on time to block.

I just want my playstyle back ;_;
I-It's not like I built spell vamp on Veigar or anything . . . I mean, who would do that lol.

*cries as super burst healing Veigar is now gone*
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ShadowKnight1224
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Ask Konata
Mar 7 2015, 09:04 AM
*cries as super burst healing Veigar is now gone*
Spellvamp Morgana is still a thing. Get 75% spellvamp, shoot a Q and heal a third of your HP. Put a W under a minion wave and you're basically Swain-ulting.
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Spell vamp Nunu will always take the cake. (because he consumes it)
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Wizard996
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CrazyMLC
Mar 7 2015, 10:14 AM
Spell vamp Nunu will always take the cake. (because he consumes it)
Jokes on him; the cake is a lie.
Ah, I remember the early level 2 days of building nunu the way kayle is built (guinsoos, gunblade, so fun).
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Kwon Ri Sae
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CrazyMLC
Mar 7 2015, 10:14 AM
Spell vamp Nunu will always take the cake. (because he consumes it)
Spectral Wraith Nunu, never forget.

Solo baron with spectral wraith, madreds, and blue elixir at level 10.
Edited by Kwon Ri Sae, Mar 9 2015, 02:31 AM.
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Kaynunot
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I'm reading over the patch Notes now. Not only does Veigar's Event Horizon Particle Warning actually start when he casts it, it's now .5 seconds, down from .75 seconds. this isn't the Instant stun we have before, but it allows counterplay to good players while still working as a Stun to anyone else. I am admittedly worried though because I don't see the mention of their previous intended change where Event Horizon forcibly stopped all Dashes.
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