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Hey Shadow Isles, I have an idea
Topic Started: Mar 15 2015, 02:35 PM (1,137 Views)
CupcakeTrap
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What could possibly go wrong?

(I realize I shouldn't even joke about this—the problems that arose there are part of why we're taking so much time to get everything perfect before the next arc starts—but I couldn't resist.)
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Mar 15 2015, 02:38 PM.
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RednaxelaKor
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Undead Cyborg Merman wearing Crab Armor
I continue to remain unamused.

In my observations, having Aatrox didn't have much of an effect on The Isles's performance on the rift anyway. If he joins the roster, I doubt it will make much of a difference.
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LordHippoman
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Invoker
This ranks up there with "Being Katarina's Dad" on a list of most potentially fatal things in Valoran.
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Kaynunot
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Kuronan Estimare, Psionic Psion of House Estimare
CupcakeTrap
Mar 15 2015, 02:35 PM
Posted Image

What could possibly go wrong?

(I realize I shouldn't even joke about this—the problems that arose there are part of why we're taking so much time to get everything perfect before the next arc starts—but I couldn't resist.)
On a scale from 'That was actually pretty funny' to 'I'm going to kill you.' Cupcake just earned a 'You are dead to me' for about two days...
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CupcakeTrap
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This was in fact a real problem, and a major reason why I refuse to start the next arc until everything's worked out. I don't want anything like this to ever happen again.
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The Red Warden
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Conjurer
It would be a lot funnier if the Yordles got him seeing how low their points are. Imagine how unfitting it would be to see Aatrox leading a group of Yordles.

"Charge my munchkins, chew on their ankles"
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CupcakeTrap
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The Red Warden
Mar 16 2015, 04:04 AM
It would be a lot funnier if the Yordles got him seeing how low their points are. Imagine how unfitting it would be to see Aatrox leading a group of Yordles.

"Charge my munchkins, chew on their ankles"
He's a shapeshifter, so clearly he would appear to them as some kind of cartoon hamster.
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silencermage
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Research and Devlelopment
Maybe he would become the Tasmanian devil from looney tunes
Edited by silencermage, Mar 16 2015, 08:28 AM.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

Aatrox himself wasn't the real problem I feel. It was how he was portrayed in the post announcing his pickup and how the people viewed him. Originally Freljord and Shadow Isles weren't going to fight, then when it was announced that SI picked up Aatrox, his portrayal and the view of the community swung Freljord's vote to fight SI (SI's vote was unchanged and continued to show they wanted to avoid fighting Freljord if possible).

So yeah some of the mechanics of how Aatrox works world systems wise needs some polishing, the main problem was when people heard Aatrox they went warmonger and wanted to fight (which is actually rather fitting). If Aatrox continues to create a scenario where everyone teams up against the faction that uses him, then major problems are going to happen again. But, if that doesn't become the case then Aatrox could end up working well as the roll we originally meant him to fill (helping out weak factions).
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
I don't like the way Aatrox works. The moment you give a losing Faction what is perceived as an advantage, the Faction is going to cling to it like a lifeline in an attempt to get back into the game, and in doing so they will end up sealing their fate as everyone else teams up against them.

The problem, the way I see it, is in the misconceptions about Aatrox. Aatrox is not a thing you have for an extended period of time. He is not under your control. He is an intelligent creature that intervenes in battles for his own mysterious designs. Binding him to rules and making him an extended presence completely undermine what he's about. He's not some mindless blood god that wants nothing but constant warfare. He's a creature with an alien mind that performs incision-like interventions at key points in order to alter the course of an important battle.

He shouldn't be something you can summon, control, or even becomes "part" of the Faction. The bottom-most Faction should get access to Aatrox as a pick-up in matches for as long as they have at least 20 points difference with the third-bottom Faction in the BoP, and that's it. Aatrox should not give any sort of combat bonus because he should not be showing up to help the Faction in a consistent or predictable manner. Instead, the staff should consider what Aatrox would do as a character, and if he joins a battle because it fits him, then he gives a bunch of bonuses all around that last for that battle only.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

That does seem like a good way to approach how to incorporate Aatrox. The old Aatrox mechanics made it so he was never considered for his match power, but his world system effects. (Although, if a faction was losing because they had no good top laners or junglers for their team comp they might actually want aatrox for his in match power, but I don't know of a faction that would desperately need Aatrox to fill their team comp.)

Making Aatrox leave after the faction catches up is smart. Cupcake has said in the past that he didn't want factions to intentionally lose so as to use the system to pickup extra champions. Since Aatrox stops helping after you catch up, there isn't an advantage to be had by intentionally losing. The only problem I see with this is it might become hard for factions to keep up with their rosters if Aatrox is constantly being added to and removed from a faction's roster.

As far as how Aatrox joins a battle, that gets a little tricky to balance. From his lore he should only be showing up for seriously mismatched battles, bring extreme military bonuses, drag out a war that gets very bloody, and leave the soldiers of the army he aided with some bad side effects. The question remains of how we incorporate all of this. We can't have Aatrox joining a battle a regular thing, it needs to be very rare. Otherwise you could end up with a weird scenario where factions with weak military can bully out major powers cause they are expecting Aatrox to win the fighting for them. Probably need staff to decided (in secret) if a certain battle has the possibility of Aatrox showing up, and then having a dice roll to see if he actually does.

Then there are still many other mechanics for Aatrox to consider. He likes to drag out a war and cause a lot of death that wouldn't usually happen, so that would mean he sticks around for rest of the war. Problem is, an arc does not equal a war. In fact, outside of Shon-Xan all the fighting has been single battles. So, that leads to whether or not extended wars are going to be a thing for future arcs, and how much does Aatrox affect the length of said wars.

After that leads to the side effects he leaves on the soldiers. How do we incorporate a faction's soldiers turning into "monsters" due to Aatrox's influence. Also, should we force a faction to accept Aatrox's help if he does end up appearing. A faction may not consider the side effects of Aatrox worth his military help. But, his lore doesn't exactly make it sound like a faction's leaders have much of a choice in his help. Aatrox shows up, inspires the troops on the verge of defeat to fight, and leads the army to a victory paved in blood. I don't image that troops filled with blood lust under Aatrox's leadership would stop to hear what the faction's summoners have to say, but at the same time telling the players that they are now stuck in a long, drawn out war and their troops will be insane warmongers afterwards and they have no say in the matter doesn't seem very fair.

Basically all this leads up to huge balancing issues and a lot of headaches for Cupcake and Nagga.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
I propose very simple rules for handling Aatrox:

As a pick-up for matches:

Only available for the Faction with the lowest BoP, and only for as long as that Faction remains 20 points under the next lowest BoP Faction.

As a Military bonus:

Only available for battles that are both mismatched (one side has over twice the Military value of the other) and important on a historical/future context (up to the Staff's discretion). If both conditions are met, the staff rolls a d10 on secret, and Aatrox shows up on a 10.

Note how both rules are separate, and how a Faction may be picking up Aatrox regularly in matches, but then launch a massive assault on an enemy outpost, and find Aatrox on the opposite side.
Edited by ShadowKnight1224, Mar 16 2015, 03:10 PM.
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AbiwonKenabi
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Sorcerer
I feel like the "only under 20 points" thing makes the roster fluctuate too much. Rarely are factions more than 20 points behind, and when they are, they tend to stay there. I think maybe the "points behind" requirement should be higher to get rid of Aatrox. For example, 20 pts behind nabs you Aatrox, 10 points behind and he leaves. Or perhaps if the faction is less than 20 pts behind for X amount of time?
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
The point is that if the Faction stops being 20 points behind the next lowest one, Aatrox leaves them. This would take effect the moment the BoP is updated and would come from an announcement from CCT or another staff member. Ideally in order to make this fair, we would need to make BoP updates scheduled (maybe once or twice a week?) so that factions that get Aatrox get them for a period of time where they can make use of him. If the BoP updates Mondays (or Mondays and Fridays), that gives the Faction access to Aatrox for the weekend tournament.
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drmigit2
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Magus
ShadowKnight1224
Mar 17 2015, 09:23 AM
The point is that if the Faction stops being 20 points behind the next lowest one, Aatrox leaves them. This would take effect the moment the BoP is updated and would come from an announcement from CCT or another staff member. Ideally in order to make this fair, we would need to make BoP updates scheduled (maybe once or twice a week?) so that factions that get Aatrox get them for a period of time where they can make use of him. If the BoP updates Mondays (or Mondays and Fridays), that gives the Faction access to Aatrox for the weekend tournament.
The only problem I have with this system is that Aatrox is a pretty crappy champion that nobody really plays. Giving a faction Aatrox is...well...kind of pointless if he doesn't actually give the faction World System bonuses. I think the idea of him being a last-ditch psycho option is fine, I think it's possible that we should tone down the evil aspect of Aatrox and more focus on the glory of Aatrox. What I mean here is that when Aatrox shows up, people fight harder, they fight stronger and will never retreat. Aatrox is a charismatic figure who will make a scene of righteousness and glory, it's only when we look back that we see Aatrox's crusades as brutal and barbaric. Aatrox COULD fight for Demacia, and Demacia COULD find themselves accepting him as a righteous paladin, slaying all those who would oppose Demacia's righteousness. Having the sky go black, fire and brimstone fly everywhere, and evil music accompanying him doesn't actually fit his theme. Justicar Aatrox is how many end up perceiving him when he fights for them. Maybe if a faction picks Aatrox, it shouldn't be immediately obvious that he joined them, they just all the sudden start fighting harder, their military gains become more apparent, and they get a secret stating that Aatrox is on their faction. Obviously they COULD spill the beans and start using him in featured matches, but most factions want Aatrox for his military bonuses, not because of his in-game presence.
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AbiwonKenabi
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I was just thinking how out of hand that could get. If a faction is hovering around the same score with only minor fluctuations, Aatrox could potentially be on their roster every other week. Not only is that confusing ("Wait, do we have Aatrox still or not?") but it doesn't totally sell Aatrox to me. He would stay on a side until they actually obtain some form of victory, he wouldn't come back to check on them now and again like a worried mother.

I'm not saying my solution is perfect, only seeing a flaw and trying to fix it. Remember, there's a decent percentage of Factioneers that only casually play games, or at least don't religiously follow roster changes every week. Heck, it could get confusing for regular Factioneers. I know I would probably lose track. Its much simpler to have permanent additions to a roster (Gnar is now available for Freljord) which is why I think Aatrox was obtainable that way in the first place. Sure there's still the MIA champions, but that has an element of randomness and is something the faction opts into.

This might also be me having flashbacks to the Bandle-Pilt alliance ("You get a Piltover champion as Bandle City, Ziggs and Heim don't count! But you only get ONE Pilt champ, and oh, you can't do this against Piltover. Against Pilt you don't pick a Pilt champ AND you don't get Heimer or Ziggs." Try finding an easy way to explain that to newer guys D:)
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Hey now, every single time there is a Feral-Flare/Devourer-type item and is relatively powerful, Aatrox becomes an amazing jungler. He might swing back into a powerful pick if they tweak any of the attackspeed items, particularly the Devourer enchantment.

Anyway, I do agree that it's best for him to be painted as a diverse figure (again, because he's an intelligent creature that knows how to best appear to the armies it wants to influence), but I disagree that it should give any form of permanent bonus. Aatrox is not reliable or controllable. He does not help you because he likes you, he helps you because it alters the course of history in a way he finds agreeable, and he never helps you any more than he absolutely has to in order to achieve his goals.

My problems with Aatrox are mostly that he's treated as some sort of commodity, a safety net for the underdog faction that gives them a shot at rising to the top and drives them to rely on Aatrox even further. This is why it's ultimately an unhealthy thing.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

ShadowKnight1224
Mar 17 2015, 03:07 PM
he never helps you any more than he absolutely has to in order to achieve his goals.
His military effects, however, stay. His lore states the warriors he inspired continued to fight at the elevated level until they won the war. Then, eventually the soldiers realize that "their acts of heroism were, in fact, brutal atrocities committed by their own hands."
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
The problem is that reliability contributes to Factions treating Aatrox as some sort of trump card or safety net, when he shouldn't be one. He should be an unreliable force that you cannot trust.

Maybe if we made the bonuses rely on dice rolls? Enough randomness would net a positive result in the long run, but it wouldn't make it reliable on a battle to battle basis, so it would discourage the idea of treating Aatrox as a trump card, since you can't rely that the dice will go in your favour.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

Battles already have enough randomness and dice rolls that you can't rely on Aatrox for a trump card. Also, the idea would be to have Aatrox's appearance be a low chance, so people can't rely on it anyways. Say we use the old +20% strength boost he gave in Nyroth, seeing as you can easily end up rolling very low numbers for your troop count, making the +20% mean very little.
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