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This arc.; Your feelings about this arc.
Topic Started: Sep 12 2015, 01:38 PM (3,635 Views)
Crzymstrbkwrm876
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EVERY DAY IS A GOOD DAY TO TORTURE, MAIM, AND DESTROY
Below is a message I sent to CCT like yesterday, and after I sent it I thought-instead of just my thoughts coming in, maybe others would like to comment! So I was wondering if you feel the same way that I do about this arc.
So below is the message that I sent-afterwards, go ahead and tell me if you think I said things correctly, if you agree, etc.
Don't be harsh -.-
Spoiler: click to toggle

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Crzymstrbkwrm876
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EVERY DAY IS A GOOD DAY TO TORTURE, MAIM, AND DESTROY
Oh shadow. Just because you SAY your not being dismissive doesn't mean your not being dismissive. The fact that you felt that you had to say that implies that you knew what you would say would come across as dismissive lol.
Also, 3/4 of our community does it as a casual thing to have fun with. You shouldn't be angry at them just because they aren't hard-core factionists like you are.
Edited by Crzymstrbkwrm876, Sep 13 2015, 12:25 PM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Yes, which is why I made sure to say it so that my true intentions can be known. I don't mind if it came off as dismissive, only that it's clear that it wasn't my intention to be petty and/or mean, but to simply highlight the flaws in the argument.
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Crzymstrbkwrm876
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EVERY DAY IS A GOOD DAY TO TORTURE, MAIM, AND DESTROY
But you didn't hightlight flaws lol you just said that she didn't look hard enough for answers to her questions because they were already answered somewhere in a galaxy far far away.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
The flaw in the argument is that all the information Light felt was missing was, in fact, easily reachable by being a forum regular. If you could spare the time to check the main website, surely you could check the forums' Recent Active Topics list as well. And if you perchance happen to stumble upon a thread that describes what the staff has been working on lately, well, might as well check that out.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
Mike, do you ever get the feeling we're invisible?
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Crzymstrbkwrm876
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EVERY DAY IS A GOOD DAY TO TORTURE, MAIM, AND DESTROY
Shadow I'm pretty sure I'm on more than you but even I am confused about what the staff is doing lol.
No xalk you and Mike aren't invisible lol.
Edited by Crzymstrbkwrm876, Sep 13 2015, 01:12 PM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
Currently the staff is doing nothing that isn't scheduled. Before that, the staff has produced things such as the revised WS and the loresplosion, both of which were posted a couple of weeks ago (though I believe Nagga still has to finish Espionage?).

During the arc, the staff has been hard at work. Even now, I am working on something (the RPG system).

The staff is not lazying about. Whatever the other staffers are doing, they're either working on something or taking a well deserved break (since we don't get to take a break during Intermission. We have to A) keep you guys interested until the next arc, B) polish/balance mechanics, C) catch up on lore from previous arcs, D) prepare the upcoming arc, and so on).
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CupcakeTrap
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As I told Crazy via PM earlier today: I generally agree with all of this. I appreciate the insightful and useful input.

Was this arc a fumble? Sure. Did we give it a good shot? I think we did, and I think we'll do better next time around. SK is absolutely correct that staff has done a tremendous amount of work here, and while some of that fizzled out, we now have a ton of material to draw from. Planning for the next arc, as a result, is going to be less like building something truly from scratch and more like fitting a puzzle together. We've got the material, we just need to pick and choose to make a functioning whole. That's a great place to be.

That said, I don't want to sound like I've given up on this arc. I think this arc will still make for an interesting part of Factions history, depicting the rise of Shurima, and exploring that region and its history. We're also getting a bit more development of Piltover as a setting. Noxus has been unfortunately neglected somewhat, but I believe we can remedy that.
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501st Big Mike
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I reserve the right to be loudly opinionated on subjects I am completely ignorant of

XalkXolc
Sep 13 2015, 01:09 PM
Mike, do you ever get the feeling we're invisible?
all the time
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LightPhyXer
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Conjurer
EDIT: RIP accidental submission.

I know things are available, but that wasn't my point. I was only detailing my experience with the past few weeks of Factions and how lacking it is in what made Nyroth at least somewhat compelling.

I'm not saying things are not being done or blaming staff for not doing their job. I'm just saying why I'm not all too interested in how this arc turns out.

Perhaps this is unique to Shurima due to the whole early victory thing and its fallout, but as a Shurima player, I have no incentive to participate in Factions right now. At the least, none I can identify.
Edited by LightPhyXer, Sep 13 2015, 02:44 PM.
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Crzymstrbkwrm876
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EVERY DAY IS A GOOD DAY TO TORTURE, MAIM, AND DESTROY
LightPhyXer
Sep 13 2015, 02:34 PM
xaz
What does that mean?
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
Hey crzy, Light is a guy btw.

I mean, you can think of him as a girl if you want.
Edited by Kwon Ri Sae, Sep 13 2015, 03:25 PM.
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ShadowKnight1224
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Every day is Lissandra Appreciation Day
In the past couple of weeks, yes, things have grinded to a halt as some unknown malaise has struck CCT, leaving us mostly in the dark.

Randomly bad events do happen. I believe insurance companies (and the Law in general) call them "acts of god" or some other poetic term like that.
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AbiwonKenabi
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I can agree with a lot of what Light is saying. Just because we've sort of "addressed" it in the forums doesn't make his concerns completely invalid. BUT he probably would be....less concerned I guess?....if he had checked at the very least the Agenda thread and maybe peeked at World Systems and saw that it was a WIP. But even so, I still understand his concerns, as I have felt similar things myself (and apparently Xalk as well) and I have kept completely up to date on everything that is going on.

Speaking on my own experiences, I wish I could have participated more. My contributions to this arc feel like they have dwindled down to little more than "forum lurker", though I know earlier in the arc I contributed a lot to discussion. Basically real life started happening for me and I suspect this is what happened to CCT and a few others as well. There's little we can do about real life interfering with our Factions work. Factions is a hobby for fun, so of course it's going to get the shaft in priorities sometimes. It just makes it more clear that we need more/better delegation, so that if CCT or someone have RL pop up, there are other people around to cover for them. If we had a better plan in place, CCT disappearing for a time might not have been as bad, as we could easily just continue following the plan and keep things going. That happened somewhat--I mean, match staff has been consistently on point, every weekend--but as far as I can tell lore staff hasn't been working on anything and I haven't seen Nagga on here for a while so WS hasn't continued it's formerly decent progress. CCT disappears and things grind to a halt, and if we take anything away from this arc, it should be to fix that.

To clarify, I'm not blaming anybody, it's not anyone's fault that Factions work slowed down; since CCT generally is the one to say "work on this" it's no surprise that when there isn't anyone to tell staff what to work on, they don't know what to work on. I am just pointing out that some sort of loose schedule of work to be done could be very useful in avoiding situations like these.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
AbiwonKenabi
Sep 14 2015, 09:04 AM
match staff has been consistently on point, every weekend
HAHAHAHAHAHA.

The fact that this somehow applies to me is hilarious. Maybe the others, but RL has decided to screw with my weekends, too.

Mike: I'll try and see if I can free up my schedule and help out w/ FMs again. Based on my current schedule, though, it's...doubtful.
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CupcakeTrap
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AbiwonKenabi
Sep 14 2015, 09:04 AM
I can agree with a lot of what Light is saying. Just because we've sort of "addressed" it in the forums doesn't make his concerns completely invalid. BUT he probably would be....less concerned I guess?....if he had checked at the very least the Agenda thread and maybe peeked at World Systems and saw that it was a WIP. But even so, I still understand his concerns, as I have felt similar things myself (and apparently Xalk as well) and I have kept completely up to date on everything that is going on.

Speaking on my own experiences, I wish I could have participated more. My contributions to this arc feel like they have dwindled down to little more than "forum lurker", though I know earlier in the arc I contributed a lot to discussion. Basically real life started happening for me and I suspect this is what happened to CCT and a few others as well. There's little we can do about real life interfering with our Factions work. Factions is a hobby for fun, so of course it's going to get the shaft in priorities sometimes. It just makes it more clear that we need more/better delegation, so that if CCT or someone have RL pop up, there are other people around to cover for them. If we had a better plan in place, CCT disappearing for a time might not have been as bad, as we could easily just continue following the plan and keep things going. That happened somewhat--I mean, match staff has been consistently on point, every weekend--but as far as I can tell lore staff hasn't been working on anything and I haven't seen Nagga on here for a while so WS hasn't continued it's formerly decent progress. CCT disappears and things grind to a halt, and if we take anything away from this arc, it should be to fix that.

To clarify, I'm not blaming anybody, it's not anyone's fault that Factions work slowed down; since CCT generally is the one to say "work on this" it's no surprise that when there isn't anyone to tell staff what to work on, they don't know what to work on. I am just pointing out that some sort of loose schedule of work to be done could be very useful in avoiding situations like these.
I think this is broadly correct. I did delegate a lot, but I often didn't take the crucial next step of issuing firm deadlines, or maintaining a master-schedule that made it clear what had to be done when. That's a priority going forward. Don't let me forget: we need schedules. Otherwise, it defaults to me going around poking people to get things done, and trying to remind myself to get things done "sooner or later". That's not a reliable or efficient workflow management technique.

Matchstaff is the principle exception: I believe FMs really were well delegated and well managed. Mike and Porkchop, together with their staff, reliably put out signups, ran matches, submitted results, and so on. I think this was in part because, unlike other areas, FMs had a clear schedule: everyone knew they happened on Saturday/Sunday, and so it was clear what had to be done when. Other areas left that a lot more vague, and as a result, it's only natural that progress stalled.
Edited by CupcakeTrap, Sep 14 2015, 11:12 AM.
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RaptorAttacks
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Archmage
Alright, I think I need to delegate a 'Factions Friday Manager', just in case I end up fucking up and crashing at 4pm because of Hearthstone again.
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CupcakeTrap
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RaptorAttacks
Sep 14 2015, 11:46 AM
Alright, I think I need to delegate a 'Factions Friday Manager', just in case I end up fucking up and crashing at 4pm because of Hearthstone again.
In line with the above, I'd also recommend you come up with a checklist/schedule for running Factions Friday: what needs to happen when.
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XalkXolc
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Lightning Ball goes Boom
I just realized that something that might be relevant to this discussion might be intent vs. impact, especially in terms of measures enacted by the staff.

Okay, let's get into it.

(For flavor, you may choose to read this post in the voice of MatPat from Game Theory.)

Intent vs. Impact is an undervalued concept that I think is one of the most important aspects of communication in any form. It's based off of one principle: what you intend may be different from the actual result. Simple enough, but a rather powerful statement, when you consider how often conflict is caused by one or more parties not considering the effect of this concept. A rather relevant example of how a statement could have an incorrect impact is as follows:
I see someone wearing a hat. I like that hat, so I tell him, "Hey, nice hat."
However, he's had a crappy day, he's grumpy, and he's only wearing a hat that he hates because he lost a bet, or...something. He feels like I'm making fun of him, and because he's upset, he replies with, "Oh, fuck off."
Both of us leave thinking, "Man, what an ass."
In this exchange, both of us leave feeling like the other person is an asshole for no reason other than the impact of my statement was different that what I intended. Furthermore, it caused conflict. I could go on for a while about all this, but I'm pretty sure that's as far as I need to go for this post.

So what's the point of this long-winded wall of text? Well, let's apply the concept of Intent vs. Impact to the current scenario, specifically Light's post and SK's response. While I won't presume to know how SK reacted to Light's post, I will take a look at what I think might have potentially contributed to the issue. Specifically, I found this statment:
LightPhyXer
 
There's nothing pulling me in. Part of what kept me going in Nyroth was feeling like something was going on all the time.
Now reading this from SK's perspective, this might come off sounding whiny and petulant. Why? Well, SK's perspective is likely that there is plenty going on. From working on lore, throwing around ideas in the Gdocs and forums, working on the RPG system, etc. etc., ShadowKnight's been a very busy Batman. On top of that, there's been quite a lot of dissatisfaction this arc and I wouldn't be surprised if SK's about had it up to here, feeling like that work he's put in is going unappreciated. As a member of staff, his intent is to produce a great product that will entertain people, and he's been putting a lot of work into that. However, we have to make sure we also look at the impact.

From Light's perspective, and several others, this arc has been pretty barren. But why, when staff is working so hard, is that? Well, some of it is because we've gotten used to a usual arc pacing. The last few arcs were pretty exciting, with lots of WS stakes and crazy stories. What we didn't realize at the time was that it wasn't sustainable. However, learning that fact doesn't change the fact that we still want that level of excitement, because it was fun. As such, when compared to Nyrtoh, LitS seems less exciting because Nyroth moved at a breakneck pace. As a result, work doesn't feel like it's getting done at anywhere near a "proper" rate, because we're used to the higher speeds of Nyroth and Hextech.

'Okay, sure,' says the hypothetical forum lurker, 'but couldn't Factioneers just look at the Gdocs to see that work is getting done? Isn't that the point of them?' Well, in this case, hypothetical forum lurker is right, but is also kinda missing the point. Transparency is awesome, and being able to use the community as a resource for the work makes it a two-way street. In the end, however, Factions as a whole only cares about the finished product. Seem harsh? Well, I have two subpoints for that statement, to explain it more clearly. The first is this article by Cracked.com writer David Wong, a mostly serious reality check about how the world works. I definitely recommend reading. It was a life-changing 15 minutes for me, and no. I'm not joking. As for the second part, is the fact that only a small percentage of the community actively participates in the forums and the Gdocs, and actually looks at and appreciates openly all the work that staff does. For each of those people, there are three more who just see that not much is happening, and...that's it. They only notice the product, or in this case the lack thereof.

It's actually a similar problem to what Riot tends to have...all the time. The community says "fix this," Riot tries to fix it, it gives rise to a new problem, the community goes "Rito plz how could you not have seen this coming this is so stupid" and somewhere, a Riot employee dies a little inside because they put hours of work playtesting the change but couldn't see all the possibilities because the community is huge and Riot only has so many hours in a day to playtest, so they can't possibly test all the possibilities. Obviously, there are outliers, but this is also part of a much larger discussion so I'll leave it at the part of the argument that's most relevant.

The most important things about this issue are twofold: one, neither side is really The Bad Guy. Staff's not really at fault because they REALLY have been putting in a lot of unpaid free time to work on this stuff. However, the community's not really at fault because they signed up for a product, and they're not getting it. And it's not that they're assholes for not appreciating the work, because at the end of the day, not many of us can spare the energy well and truly appreciate the work. Two, every actions has a reaction, and at the end of the day, it's the reaction, or impact, that's going to have a tangible effect on the world. Good intentions can only get you so far.

It's a super complex issue, one that I really wish I had more time and space to go over, but I think this post does a pretty good job of that. Plus, I seriously REALLY recommend reading that article I linked.

Also, I'll only put a TL;DR if I get a crapton of requests for one, because I think this is a really important concept to be aware of.
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Kwon Ri Sae
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Name Changer Extraordinare
Whoa.

Nice post.

Ok I read the article, was interesting.
Edited by Kwon Ri Sae, Sep 14 2015, 09:12 PM.
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